Title Bouts

[William]

A few thoughts to throw out for discussion regarding the current state of kickboxing. Clearly, the IKF takes its sanctioning role quite seriously when it comes to giving the green light for title shots. However, title bouts are few and far between due to the depleted ranks of pro kickboxers. There appears to be a catch-22 in effect. I liken it to the lament of many college grads who can't find a job. They don't have any experience so no one will hire them in their respective field, an impossible quandry.

So it is with many of today's kickboxers. IKF doesn't believe they rate a title shot because they lack the pro experience. However, booking bouts for an up and coming kickboxer is no simple task. Can I get an amen from Ray Thompson? So the sport finds itself in a classic dilemma. Clearly, the IKF seeks to seperate itself from the field of bogus organizations who give world titles away on a whim. On the other hand, a number of quality guys, Jimmy Stewart comes to mind, simply can't get a shot because they can't find any IKF sanctioned competition.

If a challenge goes out and no one deemed worthy by the IKF answers the call, what's wrong with giving the newly minted pro a crack at it? Or a guy with a not so stellar record? He has stepped up to claim the prize and is willing to fight for it. Why not let him if no one else will? The alternative is to have titles remain undefended for years on end and deter many of today's promising amateurs from seasoning the pro ranks.

Best Regards,

William

[Ray Thompson]

William,
You got your AMEN. But I kinda have to agree with the policy the IKF puts forward on being sellective on who is allowed to fight for the titles. Yes there seems to be a shortage of fighters when in reality there isn't. They are there but are spread amongst too many orgs. One of the things that makes the IKF stand out is the fact they are a little picky about offering there titles to fighters that are not to the level that they require. This I think adds value to these titles. All the ranks may not be filled but when you see a world champion in the ranks he/she IS a true world class athlete or an athlete worthy of the title they fought for. I, like you would love to see the titles filled but with fighters that do not stink up the rankings. It is sad to say that we all KNOW that happens in some orgs. I think we need to push a "grass roots" effort in recruiting fighters or at least inform fighters in our area about the IKF. I just happened to learn about the IKF because of a friend and fighter named Paul Pearman who told me about the Nat. tourn. I didn't find out via internet. It was person to person grass roots contact that brought the Wonderboy to the IKF scene. How many Selbees, Nevitts, and Wonderboys are out there waiting to be discovered by one of us.
Get out there and beat the bushes, get on the phone and spread the word about the IKF and get those fighters involved. That is the way to fill the title vacancies. ;) What do you think???

[axe018]

i agree with Ray. There are great fighjters out there that just need to know about the IKF, and start fighting IKF sanctiond events so we have more ranked fighters and have the titles filled by quality champions.

[William]

Ray,

Your points are well made. However, let me make an analogy about shortages. The Soviet Union posessed some of the most fertile farmland in the world. Yet they constantly had food shortages. The issue was not a shortage of foodstuffs, but rather the inept and antiquated delivery processes the Soviets employed to distribute it. This created shortages in the markets while tons of products remained unharvested or left to rot in storage.

There may well be a lot of pro kickboxers out there. But for whatever reason, they are not competing for IKF titles. To me, an IKF fan, this constitutes a shortage. They might be somewhere but I know one place they aren't. Look at the number of vacant titles in the IKF. More are vacant than are occupied. Then look at the amount of inactivity within each division.

Let's look at Stephen's prospects. It took a lot of work to secure his first pro pro bout. Look at what you guys went through in California (as if I need to remind you). He now has another bout scheduled for November. At the rate he's going he'll be eligible for a title shot in about seven or eight more years due to an inability to find opponents. Jimmy Stewart's title was born out of sheer perseverence and frustration. The poor guy could not get anyone deemed worthy for a title shot by IKF to show up and fight him. That's why I give a lot of credit to Bernard Robinson for stepping up and fighting Jimmy again. Bernard stepped up when no one else would. To me, guys like Bernard should be getting title shots.

So the question remains, how do you balance the quality of the competition while increasing the quantity of championship kickboxing?

Best Regards,

William

[axe018]

william
you have some very good points. so how do you think it could be fixed?

[William]

AXE018,

That is the money question, isn't it? I don't see kickboxers flocking to the IKF in the near future. Most kickboxing organizations are local entities and have relationships with the kickboxers in their region. Assume you are a "local hero" kickboxer with your own version of a title from the local sanctioning organization. What incentive do you have to go to the IKF? Professional development in the sport equates to opportunities to compete for titles that, in theory, result in bigger paydays. The list of title vacancies in the IKF is not much of a recruiting tool. The lack of exposure to IKF champions does little to perpetuate the sport. Kickboxing needs recognized champions.

Promoters will have to play a pivotal role. But they have to have something to promote. Stephen Thompson has been promoted well. Maybe too well as evidenced by the difficulties he has in finding bouts. Mark Selbee also comes to mind as a guy who has been promoted well as of late. We need more of this in the other divisions though. I'm not suggesting that the IKF turn every match into a world title event. I am suggesting more ways be explored to fill the vacant titles and put an end to the inactivity in the divisions where a title has gone undefended for more than a year.

Best Regards,

William

[axe018]

William

I agree with you completly. Ive been trying to get local promoters to sanction with the IKF for 2 years know with no luck. After i fought on some IKF events and became ranked in the int. and muay thai welterweight div. But ill keep trying,or if im lucky and can get sponcers ill start promoting my own fights.

[Ray Thompson]

Gentlemen (I Assume),
Again I think we need a grass roots effort to get out and convince promoters to sanction with the IKF. It will take time but what else is our option? Oh, just to let you know Stephen has other options that will grow his kickboxing career, so we do not see him setting stagnant. :D I am enjoying the intellegent conversation by the way.

[Ray Thompson]

Question, where do the titles under our names come from? Waterboy, champion, contender????

[Tom Jensen]

Ray:
The titles under our names has to do with how many posts you've made. Everyone starts out as a Waterboy. Since you've had over 30 posts you're a Champion.

Regarding your desire for local promoters to connect with the IKF...
I've known several local promoters who form their own organization just so they don't have to share the spotlight or money (especially money:) with anyone else. The thinking is, "So what if it's called the "Great Lakes Title." No one really knows the difference & it's my own piece of the pie. Its much like the way Pro wrestling used to divide into territories. Is it good for the sport? Absolutely not! But as long as the promoter/gym owner has a steady stream of kids in his gym to put on fights, he'll keep doing it. The sad part is its bad for the sport. And the kid with the "Great Lakes Title" may never get to know how good he is against really good fighters. But, as far as he knows (because he doesn't know about the IKF) he's Jean-Yves Therriault & Rick Roufus combined.

I don't know how to draw "local promoters" into promoting IKF fights, but it needs to happen. I have strong feelings about strengthening the sport, I just wish I had more answers.

[Ray Thompson]

Tom,
Thanks for the input. I see and understand your point. I guess we must "stay the course" and continue to promote the IKF and what it stands for. Hopefully someday these wannabe champions will step up and Walk the Walk. If every IKF fighter and trainer were to ask the promoters whether there show is IKF sanctioned then maybe the promoters will get the message.

[mouth of the south]

Well there are only 19 more days to "entrapment" and it has shaped up once again to be an awsome night of fights!!! i just hope my voice will hold up through the whole night!!! well Mr.t it looks like im going to have to step up and fight lorrie!!!! NOT!!! i hope you are able to get her a fight!! well thats all for now!!! peace out!!!! mouth of the south :cool:

[Mark Grassman]

Personally, I don't see enough kickboxing in magazines and other publications. I see boxing, NHB/MMA fighting, and other martial arts stuff but hardly any kickboxing outside of K-1.

The members of this message board have the power to publicize the sport of kickboxing by talking about any style of kickboxing on any fight card by any sanctioning body everywhere, not just IKF fights. I've heard about the alphabet soup of kickboxing orgs, but I'd be hard pressed to name more than a handfull. The IKF does a good job publicizing its events and people. Now, if only someone with some form of media can inform fans about all kickboxing cards, bouts and fighters everywhere.

[mouth of the south]

personally i would like to see nhb/mma fights along with kickboxing on the same card!!! but i see more kickboxing than anything else!! but i do like nhb and mma fights also!! i seen some old fights on the other night!! but like you with kickboxing is the way that i am with nhb/mma fighters!!! maybe we need to get kickboxing and nhb/mma fights on the same card!! but that would be up to promotors!!! unfortunately i am just a fan :( !!! but would like to see it!! peace out!! mouth of the south :cool:

[Wolfeman]

My two cents are this. If I.K.F. promoters would have the ability to get sponsors they could afford to pay their fighters more money at all levels of a pro card. From the 4 rounders or 5 rounders to the main events or title fights. Pay the fighters more and you will see more of them swing from the other org's to the I.K.F. You will also see more fighters want to fight for any titles from State to World Title's.
Just my two cents,
"Wolfeman"

[mouth of the south]

wolfman you are probably right!!! the answer might be in paying the fighters more money but dont you also think that if you could get more fighters fighting on a regular basis then the promoters can get more fights on there fight cards and when that happens there will be more people coming to see the fights therefore more money at the door!!! then there will be more money to pay fighters!!! i mean pro fighters need to fight more than once a year or even twice a year!! do you know of any pro fighters that fight more than that??? i mean like stephen thompson they have a hard time getting fighters to fight him!! and why?? answer this question and then we might be able to figure this out!!! peace out!! mouth of the south :cool:

[William]

I don't see how putting more money into the purses will create more title bouts and activity. Obviously, it will work for at least one event. However, the promoter would not be promoting very long. For more concrete examples, review some of the IKF news archives. Pay particular attention to the pay per view event.

Promoting is a business. The ultimate aim of the promoter is to put paying people into the seats. If the promoter is unable to put enough people into the seats to cover the costs of the event and make it profitably worthwhile, they will not be promoting very long. Too often, I hear people criticize promoters for being greedy, or my favorite pontification, "They should do it for the love of the sport." I can imagine the conversation at the Ray Thompson home if such saavy business advice were followed:

Mrs. Thompson: I really preferred our house to the current cardboard box we are living in.

Mr. Thompson: I know, honey. But how about my love for the sport. Besides, the cardboard box is a Maytag and I got us a prime spot under this bridge with a great view of I-85.

The promoter is in the red before the event ever starts. Consider this real life scenario. A promoter purchased a round trip ticket for James Wakefield to fly to California for a bout with Stephen Thompson. Wakefield, for whatever reason, never got on the plane. The promoter booked a second flight (at an additional fee) and again, for whatever reason, Wakefield did not get on the plane. How many people do you know who are willing to eat a $600 dollar loss with nothing to show for it? A promoter knowingly takes this kind of risk whenever he/she puts on a show. It is this type of risk that a promoter must take into consideration when determining what a fight purse is worth. As a fighter, the IKF currently has a procedure in place that ensures the fighter will be paid. The promoter has no such assurance. What the promoter can be assured of is a host of last minute headaches and expenses.

Sponsorships are not the result of some magical formula or fairy dust. They are calculated undertakings by the sponsor. Their underlying motive is always, "How will this benefit my business?" More often than not, a sponsor wants to know how your events have done in the past before they agree to pay for some of the expenses in exchange for advertising rights. Forget about television contracts for now. Television is about selling airttime to advertisers. Until kickboxing proves it appeals to a wide audience lucrative television contracts are a pipe dream.

Best Regards,

William

[Wolfeman]

The promoters still have to be able build it so they (the fans) will come.
They need to sell these cards from the ground up. Starting with finding corp. sponsors that can and will offset expenses. Pay more money and more fighters will want to fight and there will be better fighters to choose from.
Just another two cents,
"Wolfeman"

[David J Smith]

From a promoters perspective I can say that finding corporate sponsers is a difficult task. While I have managed to offset costs with local and even National sponsors it takes a lot of time and salesmanship. I believe William mention that they want to see a track record. How many seats are you going to sell. Promoters need to keep good records and provide demographic information to potential sponsors. IKF promoters need to share this information and work together to develop marketing stratigies to solicit sponsors.

Purses are a difficult problem. The last pro fight I promoted, North American Muay Thai Super middleweight IKF Title. (Larry Sharpe Canada vs Kawame Stephenes USA). I ended up loosing money on the fight and didn't pay the kind of purse I would like to have paid. I certainly wouldn't fight Larry or Kawame for what I paid them :) Yes if we can get more seats filled, and get more attention for the sport i think purses will improve.

Many promoters are doing it for the love of the sport. Steve Alley in Denver who puts on the Kickdown Series very succesfully told me that considering the time and effort it takes, about 4 months to organize each event, and the money he makes even with sell out crowds, that it equals about a weeks income from his normal business. He probally wouldn't do it if he lost money but I know he isn't doing it to get rich.

However the fly by night, fight night type guys have given promoter the reputation of being "Greedy". Most don't deserve this label and the ones that do have a tough time finding decent fighters. Maybe we should start a sleezy promoter watch list and have fighters, fans, trainers tell us all who to watch out for.

From a trainers perspective it can be hard to keep fighters motivated to train for titles that may be years away. Fighters want to fight... often more frequently than they should. We need to get then to focus on long term goals like Olympic Athletes do.

I would like to see the IKF grow to the point that people are interested in State, Regional and National Amatuer Titles. I plan to promote several events next year offering State and Regional Titles within my Region (North Mountain Region). I think the more people that do this type of grassroots building of the organization the better the organization will become.

I would like to eventually annually host a State Tournament for each State in our region between Jan - Mar. Then the Regionals in Jun - Jul. Then the athletes can attend the NAC in Aug. Would provide a nice annual cycle to organize training around for fighters and trainers and help keep fighters motivated.

[William]

David,

Your remark regarding the promotion of state and regional titles is insightful. Specifically, the idea of promoting an annual cycle of tournament events leading up to the NAC is worth a serious discussion. I'm going to explore the feasibility of it in my area.

Best Regards,

William