enough with the headgear BS !!!!

[dan tharp]

This week, steve fossum and I heatedly discussed several issues relating to the IKF. One main issue is headgear. Its completely acinine to make headgear mandatory. If rules and stipulations are in force as well as being overseen by a reputable ikf rep, there is no reason why qualified amatuers cannot CHOOSE TO FIGHT WITHOUT HEADGEAR !! Our sport is taking the backseat to mma chiefly because of the headgear. A vote is coming up again and I say if any of you will quit being yes men and have some balls and support the OPTION of going without headgear then you will see more growth of kickboxing and hopefully make the way for support of PRO fights. Discuss........ :mad:

[Curtis Bush]

Headgear should be manadatory for Amateurs. I have seen several fights where one fighter wears headgear and his opponent does not. Then the next fight has both fighters wearing headgear and the next, neither wears it. To the Public it is confusing and goofy looking. You have to have Standardised Rules for our Sport to be taken seriously. Headgear will prevent "Cuts", thats all. Why have a long Amateur career and then when you decide to turn Pro, your face is already a scarred up mess. If you think you are so tough and don't need to not wear it, turn Pro!!

[dan tharp]

Where are the pro fights ? If one wears it , the other must. It must be agreed and the same for both fighters. And for your info, I do fight amatuer without headgear. Does that make me tough enough for you ? :D

[P.J. Reilly]

Exactly!!! I'm sure as **** NOT a yes man!! I think fighters should wear headgear because of safety, period. Stop trying to sell your amateurs as pro's. If you want to take off the gear, GO PRO. Why is that so hard? You're a toughguy, right? You don't need any gear, right? Then go pro. It works for boxing so it can work for kickboxing. :mad:

[Curtis Bush]

How can the Public take our Sport as Real, if the Rules are always different on each show? You either make an Official IKF Rule that no Amateur fighters can wear headgear or all Amateur fighters must wear it. You don't think its confusing when some Aamteurs where it, some don't. Some wear 'Foot pads' some don't. Some wear 'Shin pads' some don't, etc....If each show can decide for itself what the Fighters are allowed to wear, then you will have exactly what you have now....Confusion!

[Randy Pogue]

I agree with Curtis. I don't think there are a lot of "knockout" punches being thrown that are prevented by headgear. Headgear helps keep fighters from getting cut, by the heads and elbows of inexperienced or overzealous fighters. Having been cut often by heads, spinning forearms, and elbows, I believe in protecting fighters as much as possible. I think the amount of "exposure" gained by seeing the faces of amateurs in 3 round fights is not nearly worth the potential risks to their safety.

Check the "Events" page of all the sanctioning bodies for pro fights, Dan. I don't want to get into a "tough guy" battle with you, but if you want to fight without headgear, you can fight as a pro almost every month, if you WANT to.

Do it.
RP

P.S. That's right, Curtis and I agree. He might even vote for Kerry on Tuesday.http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/wwwboard/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Curtis Bush]

Sorry Randy. It ain't gonna happen...

[Greg Kirkpatrick]

Why does headgear make the sport take a backseat to mma? I'm not clear on that. Are you saying that the fighters wearing headgear are less appealing to the fans? Or are you saying that some fighters determine that they will fight in mma and not in kickboxing cuz of headgear rules?

[DEAN LESSEI]

The headgear issue is simple. Amateurs wear it pros don't. I wonder who among us you consider to be yes men? Maybe we just believe it is important for amateurs to wear the head gear for safety. I agree with Curtis and Randy it does protect from cuts. If you want to fight like a pro than turn pro. Promoters do not need to pass off amateurs as pros. I have been firm on this issue and will remain. Amateurs wear head gear.

[dan tharp]

are you people deaf ? can you read english ? Look up the word Optional. Why are you imposing headgear on people who choose not to wear it ? No one is saying that if the rule ALLOWS OPTIONAL HEADGEAR that somebody is forced to go without it. This is where the representative is insuring that each party is fully willing to fight without headgear. I know I know, an evil promtoer is trying to sell pro fights without paying ! YOUR RIGHT, DUH ! do you understand that we are competing with mma ? For qualified amateurs there is no harm . Its all about choice. are all you nazis would be in favor of skateboarders being thrown in jail for not wearing helmets and knee pads ? Do you realize how stupid this sound ? Mr. Bush, Im assuming that you are then in favor of anything other than FC being outlawed ? as far as pro fights being able to fight once a month .... Bull**** !!!!!! to dean, we both know one of your fighters who is a friend of mine retired not only due to an injury but out of frustration of not being able to fight. Chris could not find regular fights. He turned pro only to find there was nothing there. Why doesnt everybody hear go out and start lobbying for jail time for people who skateboard without a helmet ? yes , Im afraid all you are yes men. What if IKF decides to allow an option for headgear ? are you all going to boycott the IKF ? lose all respect for steve ? or are you going to piously support steve in whatever he decides to do ?

[dan tharp]

to mr kirkpatrick, Im saying that kickboxing is dwindling promotionally because mma is more popular. this is due to the fact that people enjoy watching mma more because they do not look like the michelin man. What joy is there in watching people in pads 'fighting' ? Another thing, I have basically retired from promoting so I have no monetary interest at the moment in the issue. btw, why am i listed as a waterboy ? haha :eek:

[Greg Kirkpatrick]

Since you disagree with Steve then everyone who agrees with him is a "yes man?" I'm just reading that most of these people agree amateurs should wear headgear, so what does that have to do with being a yes man to Fossum? Also in your heated tirade you didn't answer my simple questions. How does headgear make the sport take a backseat to mma? It's a simple enough question. Can you read English?

[dan tharp]

another thing, Its my understanding that the main reason the ikf tv show tanked is because no sponsors wanted to invest money if headgear fights. right or wrong ? you can say go pro all you want but look at stephen thompson . Hes relegated to fighting some guy that has 3 amatuer fights. Wow what a bright outlook for a professional kickboxer, no fights no money no recognition. The sport is in the TANK.

[Greg Kirkpatrick]

Looks like we were both typing at the same time - thanks for the response. I don't personally see that headgear has anything to do with mma being more popular than kickboxing, if that is really true. I would guess that more people compete in amateur kickboxing as compared to competing in amateur mma. But that is just a guess I don't really know. The fans may want blood and guts but that doesn't mean that the fighter's shouldn't be protected, even from themselves. Take care.

[Curtis Bush]

Dan. Please listen to logic...If I am Joe Public and go to see some Kickboxing. And I see some fighters with headgear, some without, one fighter with and his opponent without..I am going to be confused and I will look poorly on this Sport. Its not about being tough, it is about saving the Amateurs face from cuts before he turns Pro and their is no protection. Again, if you want to fight without headgear.....Go Pro!

[dan tharp]

thanks for dialouging with me greg. Im not taking Personal jabs at anybody, Im expressing my utter frustration with the current state of affairs. The amount of kickboxers is minute to the number of mma fighters.

[dan tharp]

curtis, Im not advocating mixed matches. Ie, one without, one with. It must be the same for both.

[dan tharp]

Another thing before I go trick or treating, who are any of you to tell me I have to wear headgear ? Id rather have opportunity to fight regularly than to make 500 dollars IF IM LUCKY once a year and call my self a PROFESSIONAL? WTF ????? :confused:

[Pete P]

Dan,

I agree with EVERYONE but you, headgear should be worn for amatuers. SAFETY first, and for this sport to grow, the public needs to see that safety is given priority. I don't agree that KB is taking a back seat to MMA, granted there "may" be more fighters in MMA, but I think it is the ground game that has attracted more of the competitors, and the sport has been publicized more thru PPV than KB (those promoters had more $$ to work with). If you don't want to use headgear, than switch to MMA. AND, yes, there ARE plenty of pro fights out there. They are all over. There are many fighters competing at Steven Thompson's weight, they are just not his caliber of competitor, so why challenge him. He hasn't been pro long, he will get fights. They are out there! I saw you fight without headgear in Omaha just this past year, didn't I? If you are so set against headgear, then fight for a different org than the IKF, many smaller santioning orgs give the option. The IKF is trying to build kickboxing up with some standards and ethics, and professionalism. You said, "who are any of you to tell me I have to wear headgear?" Well, Dan, none of these guys told you you have to, IT IS IN THE RULES, oh yea, you don't read english, my bad :rolleyes: OH, furthermore, just like the others in this thread....I am no "yes" man. I kiss no ones ass! I speak my mind and stand up for what I feel is right. Simply agreeing with the IKF rule of headgear for amatuer fights is NOT being a "yes" man, it is our opinion, just like not wearing it is your opinion.

Once again, if you don't like it, fight else where, or go pro!

Peace, Pete

[Pammypanda1]

ok.................

I've been outta it for too long.... and this one is too good to pass up. :D

Who said Kickboxing is not as popular as MMA cause of the head gear?? It sounds to me like you shoulda wore that head gear in a couple more fights cause you sound like your brain is suffering from a couple of hard shots without protection! :rolleyes:

MMA followers enjoy the game because of the variety of training used in the game, not because there is no headgear worn! duh! Some go for the blood that sometimes happens and sometimes doesnt. Some go to watch the talent, training, and skill put forth by the fighters. IF more are going for the blood, then one can only say it's because society has become so desensitized that some see more excitement out of watching someone's face get bashed in then watching the execution of the different systems they have spent time learning.

Kickboxing, on the ametuer level, allows beginners to truly experience getting into the ring without taking as much risk at injuries. "Risk" would be increased if they did not wear headgear! They have "amateur" and "professional" levels for reasons, just as they have "Full contact", International", and "Muay Thai" rules. Would you also like to also drop the rules divisions too? I mean, c'mon, why should the fighters be restricted by specific rules? Why not just go in and throw punches with no rules? Wouldnt that make us even more like MMA since that seems to be what you are after?

Should we next go into the dance studios and make the hip-hop girls wear pointe' (ballet) shoes? :p

[dan tharp]

what you are missing quite plainly is the word OPTION. No one should be forced to fight without it. You guys sound like the wonderful benevolent government that so piously and sanctiomoniously you can tell everyone whats best for them. As far as options to NOT fight or promote ikfs events, thats for sure. Ive already done it. However, I would rather see the ikf open its policies to include OPTIONS for those promoters and fighters who desire to not fight with headgear. I mean if your happy with this little sport in little backwater shows and dont desire to actually see this sport grow into a large professional market then keep your mind closed. Pro fights ? bull**** !!! there are no consistent venues to fight in in the midwest especially. If your not a promoters boy then you can forget it. Dont hate me because Im pretty. :p

[Pammypanda1]

I've heard about men that think they're pretty.............. :p

Now I am convinced.... you went too long without headgear. :D

What you are missing quite plainly is the word "rules". Why put so much energy into something that is for the good for the sport AND for the good of the participants? Why not take some of the energy you are putting into arguing what is for SAFE for the amatuer fighters and actually help build up the following? Have you ever heard "United we stand, Divided we fall"... it's arguing over what the majority feels is best that creates static and loses supporters.

It's proven....... people wanna jump on the band wagon when everyone is excited about things as "one" group, and on the same note, people usually tend to stand back to wait and see what happens if there is disagreement, even by one.

drop it. if you don't want to wear headgear, go pro. there ARE pro fights to be had IF you really want them.

[Ray Thompson]

Dan,
Do not attempt to belittle Stephens upcoming fight by accusing him of fighting someone with only three amateur fights.

[Ronnie Copeland]

My 2 cents is that headgear should be worn by all amateurs. As Curtis Bush stated it makes kickoxing a credible amatuer sport.If one fighter wears headgear on the card and the other 8 fights th4e guys do not it will confuse the fans. I know that you said the word OPTIONAL is the key word. Look at it this way. If one fighter wants to go with out it and the other doesn't. Their is a problem for the promoter of the event. He might lose a fight from the card. The promoter who has invested all of that money to put on an event is going to try to safe the show by talking the heagear fighter into fighting without the headgear. Not to mention the non headgear fighter trying to egg on the fight with no headgear. Take the macho crap out of it. It is about the uniform saftey of each and every fighter not who is the toughest.
Amateur boxers wear headgear no complaints. Amateur boxing is much larger than MMA with the headgear. Weather a fighter wears headgear or not is a factor in the growth of a sport it is the people involved who help it grow. I think the major IKF and others are on the fight track now. Sure headgear helps against cuts but the reason headgear was developed was to prevent second impact syndrom. (When a fighter is knocked out and then hits his head ont he canvas)
I know alot of people think that it would never happen but I would like to see kickboxing an Olympic sport one day. I seriously doubt the IOC would allow it to happen without the saftey of the fighters to come first. In my amateur career I never wore a headgear in training or fighting. I wish that I would have but I didn't know any better. After all it only takes one fighter to get seriously hurt in a fight and all that kickboxing has built could potentially be torn down. :D

[SmackMaster]

"another thing, Its my understanding that the main reason the ikf tv show tanked is because no sponsors wanted to invest money if headgear fights. right or wrong ? you can say go pro all you want but look at stephen thompson."

Dan, i have spoken to steve and brooks often about the tvshow. the headgear had nothing to do with why they stopped it. steve spent a lot of money just to prove to those who showed interest that the ikf could do it. simple fact here is, no tv company wanted to 'buy' a kickboxing show. many offered for ikf to buy time or do time trades, and sponsors were there, its just the cost of doing the show the way they did was way too expensive. have you ever seen the show? i have and it was the best thing i ever saw for the sport. too bad someone like espn, fox or fx didnt want it. what did they want? reality tv shows. thats right. like the de la hoya boxing show and a zillion other reality shows now on tv. steve and brooks did a great show, you cant say they went half ass into it. they did all they could.

as for me or anyone here being a 'yes' man to steve or anyone? f. that! i dont yes man to anyone. but i will say, good thing for us steve listens to everyone, and does not settle on decision on his own. thats the plus of the ikf. we have someone who has opened his ears and listened to what the rest of us in the sport have to say.

as for mma, kickboxing and mma will never be on the same level. people in these sports are night and day different. kickboxers have far more respect to others than those mma guys. people like mma because of the sadistic rules and barbaric attitude. fans like the wwf feeling about it. the cage, when used, the long rounds of just beating and beating, even when they go down. its RAW VIOLENCE! no disrespect those guys, its just a totally different sport!

good discussion though dan. even though some of your facts are wrong and we dont agree on everything, its a good battle going on.
oh, an as far as headgear goes, dont ans me because i see good arguments both ways. but in the end, the only safe answer is wear it.

[Jason (fight geek)]

Dan,
Shut up and go pro. ;)

[dan tharp]

to mr. thompson, I was not trying to belittle stephen in ANY way. Im just stating facts. I think its a crime that a great amateur is forced to a pro career that looks abysmal at best. The big furor over him turning pro turned into a debacle because PROFESSINAL KICKBOXING IS IN A NEARLY NON EXISTANT STATE. as far as the ikf tv show, hmmm, k-1 hasnt had a problem getting on tv. tv did not see an audience for headgear kickboxing. I most definately have choices about who I fight for and who I promote under. I see that the ikf is alienating alot of people. the reality is the ikf is preaching to the choir on this point. most people who disagree just dont bother talking about it on a site like this. They just opt elsewhere.

[DEAN LESSEI]

"to dean, we both know one of your fighters who is a friend of mine retired not only due to an injury but out of frustration of not being able to fight. Chris could not find regular fights. He turned pro only to find there was nothing there."

Really Mr. Tharp? Is that a fact Perhaps Chris tells you one thing and me another. I know Chris could have found fights. Perhaps not as many as he may have wanted. I think Chris learned some hard lessons at the end of his amateur career and during his short Pro career that he was unwilling to face until recently. If Chris is such a "good friend" of yours I am sure he can tell you I am not a yes man to anyone. I am sorry you see it that way.

[Jason (fight geek)]

Dan,
A couple points,

What is the debacle you are talking about? If anything the fact that Wonderboy went pro is a HUGE boost to the pro ranks of kickboxing. I think more amatuers should go pro, and he stepped up and made the leap.

K-1 is on TV in america because it is a multi million dollar business is Japan. And they can afford to put on money losing PPV in the US because it will make money in Japan.

Why don't you get some experience and then go pro. Like you said you can pick who you want to fight for. That is great, if you hate headgear then don't fight amatuer IKF fights. But if you do that is great too and you will just have to deal with the extra safety and less recognition.

fight geek

[Pete P]

Gee Dan,

Olympic boxing wears headgear, and many of our boxing greats today came from the headgear wearing olympics to the pro ranks. So what? If they did not wear headgear in amateur boxing, then there would be even more pro boxers?? I am afraid I do not follow your thinking pattern, Dan. I have seen you fight and you fight well, but I believe you have your wires crossed on this one...i do not see where the headgear rule has anything whatsoever to do with the current state of kickboxing, amatuer or Pro.

One more thing...what do you mean by "backwater events"? I have been to small, "backwater" events before, and I personally feel that the IKF is heading in the right direction overall. Look at the regional and NAC events...they are top notch and very professional, and growing each year in both the number of competitors and the quality of competition. What more can you ask for? And all of this while wearing headgear.

If you are so set against wearing the headgear for yourself, and you may not find too many good fights for yourself where they will give you the option, then why not go pro?? You are good enough and I firmly believe you can get as many Pro as you can amatuer. If you don't believe me, let me manage you for a spell and see how many fights I can line up for you...put your money where your mouth is, whadaya say??

[dan tharp]

hi pete, i didnt realize that was you. Its good to see another muay thai gym in the midwest. Thanks for the compliment, wasnt my best performance but I had a good stiff opponent in corely. in regards to boxers, we arent boxers. we have miniscule opportunity to compete compared to amatuer boxers. I know guys who have 200 amatuer fights. Wear Headgear with that many fights with youngsters fighting. I believe youth should wear it and also pure novice fighters. Let me ask you this, what was the most fan enjoyable fight of the night ? what fight made people feel like they saw a professional fight ? . I want to see kickboxing grow in fan support. most promoters including myself cannot afford state fees, taxes and bonds to put on pro fights. this is about growing the sport. it takes fans who buy tickets even if they are drunk red neck idiots. They pay the way. They want to see unpadded fighters. BTw, I wore my headgear trick or treating last night and everyone made fun of me. Also, does this mean I will get my ass kicked if I come to the fight camp haha :D

[Pete P]

Dan,

The best fight that night was undoubtedly you and Corley. I just don't agree that it was because of not wearing heaqdgear. You both showed quality and professional technique and put combinations together very well, which alot of amatuers do not do (given that most cards have only a couple fights that involve seasoned, skilled fighters). So, the majority of fighters that crowds see are the ones with only a few fights, which of course do not look as impressive as some with experienced fighters. Does that make sense the way I worded it? Back when Mike Nevitt and Jason Robinson were still amatuers, they fought I think 3 times against each other. I think I still have one of them on tape, anyway, they both wore headgear and were still awesome to watch. It was non-stop action, hardly a breath in between combinations by either fighter, and good clean technique that you would expect out of a veteran amatuer or pro. It was incredible to watch. At that time it was PKC sanctioning the event and I believe the headgear was optional, yet they chose to wear it, simply for safety reasons. The crowds loved it and the house was full every time Rocky Troutman put on a show. this was in Illinois.

When I fought amatuer, some of my fights were KICK santioned and I always wore headgear, I didn't necessarily like it at times, but wore it for safety anyway. One fight in particular was a KICK state title fight and I was winning, then took my headgear off (it was optional with KICK) and that very round I took a spinning backfist that actually ended up being a spinning elbow which knocked me down. I lost the fight because of that point deduction (it was a close fight the whole way thru) I felt that if I still had it on, I could have absorbed some of the impact and stayed standing. The final round I ran out of gas (my fault for lack of training). Point being, I wish I still had the headgear on, and I was lucky the elbow did not cut my head.

If the IKF would change to optional, I would not agree with their decision, but would have to accept it, because it would be a rule. But I know all of my team, junior or adult, as an amatuer would wear it or not fight on my team. That is just the way I feel, my opinion.

Have you ever done a poll of some sort in your area, to see if people really would not attend as much if headgear was mandatory? Seriously, I am curious to see what kinda results would come out of it.

LOL...no this does not mean you will get your ass kicked :). BUT, good hard, intense training you will get, that is guaranteed. I have gotten heated at times on some of these threads, as we all have. But, I try to not take too much personal as most is just debating. We all have our opinions, ya know.


RESPECT ALL, FEAR NONE,
ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE!!!!!
Pete Peterson
PSDA and Team Roundkick
Carroll, Iowa

[David J Smith]

I have had a few, very few fans gripe about amature fighters wearing headgear. Usually for the first fight or so. Once they see the quality of the fighters and the fights I have never had a fan complain at the end of an event.

We always do a little education with especially with mixed pro/am events.

I just don't see it as an issue. If you have to have a high risk blood bath to promote a good fight then you are doing something wrong IMHO.

I don't consider feedback from any fan that is + 5 beers BTW. :)

[David33l]

I think the fighter posting this message considers himself a tough guy. I don't think safety is his main concern. :)

[Austin "OT" Baitman]

Amateurs = Headgear
Pros = No headgear

That's my final call. Its called SAFETY OF THE FIGHTERS! If you think you don't need headgear, then either:

1. Go pro
2. Fight for some organization or promotor that doesn't give a crap about safety, and go risk your life if thats what you really want.

Professionals are PAID to fight, thus, in return, they voluntarily accept a higher degree of calculated risk of injury.

Amateurs fight because they love the sport and love to fight. They don't care about making money (though some have pro aspirations). If amateurs think there is or will be an undue, preventable risk of injury, it will turn away fighters and/or prospective fighters