Is Kickboxing a martial art?

[Jason (fight geek)]

Just curious if you guys think KB is a Martial Art? It seems many don't really view it as such. Maybe I am wrong.
Do you guys have rankings at your schools in KB? Or is it by ability only?
Also why is it viewed as different?
I am interested in how you guys/gals view KB on the whole and in your schools/gyms?


Jason

[Kim Morris]

I wouldn't consider Kickboxing to be a martial art, but i do consider it to be a combative art. We rank our students somewhat like belt rankings but we use different color handwraps.

[Pete P]

I have always considered kickboxing to be a sport, rather than an art. But, Muay Thai is an art AND a sport. Muay Thai, though, has been taught as such from the beginning. When kickboxing began, in the states atleast, it was a combative sporting event between two "martial artists". These combatants were already skilled in their respective "arts", now showing their skill through "sport".

I know, through different message boards, that there are many schools that teach kickboxing as an art with belt ranking to boot. I have a friend in Chicago who has a black belt in "kickboxing" from several years ago...that is what his instructor at the time called what it was he was teaching.."kickboxing".

I guess I personally do not have a strong opinion on how it "should be" taught, I have seen both sides. However, I teach Muay Thai here as a martial art, with the opportunity to compete in a "combative sport" setting, both in Thaiboxing, IR, and FCR.

Kim, if you distinguish rank via colored handwraps, how do you tell once the gloves are on? I have heard of some schools doing so with colored thai shorts, and still others with colored shorts. Some with colored patches sewn onto their shorts, also. Just curious.

Well, that is my take on it.
Peac, Pete

[Pete P]

Here is another thought for you all.... along with the post below, what may be a reason why many schools call kickboxing an art too, with rank advancement is: many fighters get into kickboxing but do not have a "martial arts" background. They want to fight, but dont want all the tradition and "Gi" stuff to go along with it. So, there is an opportunity for school owners to "place" rank and some sort of structure in his/her kickboxing class...so the class builds.

Jeremy Harminson is one example. I know many of you know who he is. He is a dynamite fighter! Well, he had no martial arts background before fighting. He came to our gym in Mt. Zion, Il. for a brief time, before moving to Fort Wayne and training with Raul Llopis for a couple years. He then moved back and trained with myself for over a year. When I then moved, he began training with Ryan Blackorby. Now, the point is, Jeremy had no TKD, or Karate, or other martial art training....only kickboxing, which progressed into Thaiboxing training. The guy is a world class fighter.

So, the question: As you all know, people are naive, and they see a good fighter and ask, as many fans do, are you a "black belt"??? So what would a person like Jeremy, or others, answer? Yet, put him up against 100 different black belts, with no "ring" experience, and I bet he whoops everyone last one of them. So....by placing rank in kickboxing, I think it gives the fighter maybe alittle more "credibility" in the eyes of some naive fans.

What do you think? I know I am rambling, but gotta get stuff up on the board somehow, right?

OH, if Jeremy has ranking now, I am not aware....I haven't trained with him in a long time, so no disrespect intended in any way whatsoever, just used him as an example.

later, Pete

[Jason (fight geek)]

Interesting input,
I think it for sure is a martial art.
Kim why do you think it is not a martial art? Is judo and art or a sport? How about Sumo?
The belt system is relatively new, so one can't say a belt system. Does a martial art have to have a form?
I guess I am waiting for some persuasive argument here that it isn't a martial art?
In a way KB (all styles) is the purest martial art.
I think as Pete alluded to it depends on how it is taught, along with how the student/athlete look at it.

jason

[Randy Pogue]

I can't really get into the whole, "Kickboxing as art" thing. A common thread I see in martial "arts," is a focus on self-defense, of never using your skills to unless in physical danger, and an interest in the development of the spirit, of building better people through dedicated thought and action. That is not the case with kickboxing of any rules style. Yes, you can add meditation into your class, and sure, I have a belt ranking system too, but the heart, soul, and purpose of kickboxing is to engage in athletic competition. More like football, less like Kung Fu.
As martial arts go, unfortunately TKD has kicked "art" to the curb and become too focused on competition, so they aren't the best example, but the roots are there. Art, defense, and spiritual development aren't the root with kickboxing. You can try to make it that way, but you can also make it that way with soccer, if you choose.
I don't know, what do you think? I just made all that stuff up anyway. Does it make sense?
RP

[Jason (fight geek)]

RP,
First I promise not to ask anyone what art is.

I understand what you are saying, and just to discuss what are you saying:
You are basically implying,
1. Martial arts are based in Self Defense.
2. There must be spiritual development for Martial arts.
3. If the main purpose is to engage in athletic competition then it is not a martial art.
4. Soccer can be taught as a spiritaul defensive art. (just kidding, but I like the visual)

Because I don't know, How are Thai schools structured? Are they all sports gyms?
Jason

[Kim Morris]

A few good points made. Maybe its just me but the reason I don't think kickboxing is martial art is because it was not developed as self defence only style. Plus kickboxing uses bits and peaces from all styles. Instead of practicing forms or Kata's we practice combinations. I use color rankings mostly to help the beginner students know who to ask questions to if the instuctor is not available,but once you have been training for awhile you wll know what students have the expierience. No offence to black belts of any style ( I have one myself) but I have seen and worked with students that look great in training and testing in their own gym setting but as soon as they step into the ring everything seems to go out the window. This is where i think testing for gym ranking should be. and i don't mean by just winning but by how you perform under pressure. Like I said, this is only my opinion, and i am sure some will disagree with me, but hey, thats what this forum is for right. ;)

[Jason (fight geek)]

Kim,
Martial arts were started for fighting. I am not sure they were started as protecting yourself, but if so you did it by punching, kicking, grappling, throwing the other guy. This self defense notion is new. If it was a pure defense form you wouldn't have punches and kicks.
Is it your argument that your combinations are similar to forms or that forms help define a martial art? Just confused.

Good Points!
Jason

[Pete P]

Jason,

I think you are getting some good feedback to your post. Some good points have been made. Let me try to throw a couple more in the mix.

Kim, You said that Kickboxing uses bits and pieces from different arts to make it, so it is not an art, but a sport. What then, would JKD be (not to get into the whole JKD art/concept thing, that is a whole duscussion by itself) since it uses bits and pieces from other arts. There are so many "systems" being taught today that are not "traditional" by any means, but pull from many different "traditional" arts. So are they not arts to? Just a question for you, not an arguement.

Jason, you said martial arts were not started for self defense, that confuses me alittle. I am no history buff, but I know many systems were taught behind closed doors, so as to not get caught, and forms/katas evolved to "hide" the martial arts in a "dance", again to not get caught yet still practice...practice so if they had to defend themselves, they would be ready. Many of the traditional weapons of Japan were farming tools, which doubled as self defense weapons when attacked. You also said if it were pure self defense, you would not have punches and kicks...remember, that a good defense is sometimes a good offense. If you are attacked by multiple attackers, you can't be expected to put all of them in a wrist lock simultaneously til the cops come, you would have to employ an offense of some sort, being punches and kicks to "stop the threat"....which would still be self defense.

Not arguing with either one of you....just throwing some more thoughts back at you...its your turn again :)

Pete

[Jason (fight geek)]

Pete,
Good Points, I like the arguments! I should amend my self defense stance a bit, after reading what I wrote, I would amend that I don't think martial arts were originally taught to just be defensive. I guess it is symantics. Hence my KB is a martial art. I mean of course training to fight can be for self defense, but it can also be to conquer your enemies. I am not convinced that every Martial Art was taught as self defense as we sort of view it. I think many combat arts were taught to stomp skulls. Fine you use a Sai to take a Sword away. Then what, let the dude go...no you KILL him. If that is self defense then ok martial arts are self defense.
What does the behind the doors, dance stuff mean again? That martial arts are self defense? Help me. I need it sometimes.
Good discussion.
jason

[Pete P]

Jason,
I would agree with you, some systems are taught primarily for the offensive, not that they are out looking for someones butt to kick, but that if attacked, they are ALL offense til the job is done. Paul Vunak teaches the R.A.T. System (rapid assault tactics) and once the fight starts, it is 100% offense. He taught it to Navy Seal Team 6 back in the late 80's/early 90's and I believe they still follow the same principles today. I have not explored Krav Maga in depth, but from what I have seen, it too, is more offensive once the fight erupts. There are several others very similar. Ninjitsu dates back how long, and it was primarily offensive. Anyway, regarding the dance stuff, I will have to go back and read some more to give you a good answer, because I can't remember if it was the Indonesian, Filipino, or some of the gung fu arts (wing chun) that when their country was overran, they were banned from practicing their arts, so they did it in a sort of dance form (kata, but rythmic) to hide it from the ruling body of that time. But, no, I did not mean that this made it self defense....just that they continued to practice secretively so they could defende themselves if the need arose.

I have in the past, as I said, considered kickboxing a sport. Atleast from my perspective. But, even with that said, I find myself having my karate students take a Thaiboxing stance rather than traditional karate stance, and using the shin on roundkicks vs. the foot, etc., etc., so I am putting our sport side into the "self defense" class, because I find it more effective. Not sure if my point is being made clear here, just saying i do understand why you consider your kickboxing an art and not just sport.

Pete

[Brooks]

A martial art teaches a great deal more than just fighting. It builds a sense of personal awareness. It teaches each of us that to serve is the path to being served. That truth and the way of the warrior are the lives to which we all aspire. It forms life long bonds that enrich our lives and make us better parents, friends and brothers.
I love to fight more than I can explain. The ring has brought more pleasure to my life than I deserve and I am thankful for every moment. The ring brings peace and focus. It allows men and women to test their fortitude, their spirit, to see who they are.
Yes, Kickboxing is a martial art. Go to a Kickboxing match and watch the fighters and trainers. It is not one against the other but two camps sharing a great moment. Sharing and basking in the efforts of each other. The harder you fight, the more respect you show your opponent.
Yes, Kickboxing is a martial art and they are one with all martial artists.
Uncle Brooks

[Tom Jensen]

Kickboxing is not an art in the same way Wrestling & Boxing aren't arts. There is no doubt that kickboxing, wrestling & boxing require tremendous dedication & discipline. To be an art there needs to be a philosophy behind the techniques used that influences the practitioner's life outside the confines of the gym. Sad to say, few long time martial arts can still claim this either.

The good news is there are a lot of kickboxing & boxing trainers (Mason, Thompson, & Cooper, just to name a few) that do want to instill an ethic into the training of their fighters. Unfortunately, those ethics are not inherent in the sport we practice.

Tom

[Mark Grassman]

No. I don't consider kickboxing a martial art any more than boxing, football, and hockey fighting are.

[Dragonknight]

In no way am I a full contact fighter, but for over 10 years I have trained with KB fighters. The question, Is KB a martial art?

Well what exactly is a martial art? A martial art is an art of combat, it is (or was originally) designed for fighting.

Here are some general discriptions of some popular martial arts. Remember, do not take this as a complete and accurate description for it is merely my interpretations.

Karate:
Karate is a martial art that has its origins in Japan and Okinawa, it is one of the first asian martial arts to spread to the west. It was brought back to America by servicemen returning from Japan after the second world war and has established a strong base in the U.S. It is probably the most well known asian martial art in the west.

Judo:
Another martial art that came to America alongside karate was judo, it was founded in the 1800s by a man nemed Kano. Kano only trained for four years in martial arts (starting at the age of 18)before forming judo and hence is an inspiration to those who have started martial arts at a similar (and relatively late)age.

Judo was formed from Ju Jitsu, which Kano streamlined and altered to create his unique art.


Aikido:
Aikido was developed in the early to mid 20th century by Morehei Ueshiba in Japan. Although there are fragments of other japanese arts visibly in aikido as a whole it stands out as being quite different from its contemporaries.


Ju Jitsu:
Ju Jitsu is in many ways the central japanese martial art. It dates back long before many other japanese arts and encompasses much of the samurai way (bushido), it could be considered the classical martial art of japan.


Ninjitsu:
Where Ju Jitsu emphasised honour and bravery ninjitsu promotes stealth and trickery. Although the ninja is an image of martial arts embraced strongly by the media and general public there is much dispute as to the authenticity of many branches of ninjitsu. It would be fair to say that the nija himself died a long time ago, but the significance of the art still remains.


Sumo:
A form of japanese wrestling that is highly ritualised, its competitors are very agile for their large size and it draws massive crowds in japan.


Tae Kwon Do:
TKD is a Korean martial art baring many similariies to karate (from which it was developed) but placing a much stronger emphasis on kicking, again this was brought to the U.S. by soldiers returning home (this time from the korean war) and has since strongly established itself in the west. It is one of the most common martial arts practiced in the west. Its origin is disputed, however it has a long history with the korean millitary.


Kung Fu:
This is a term used by people to describe the wide variety of chinese martial arts in existence (the term literally translates to something along the lines of "hard work"), martial arts considered as kung fu include shaolin (the most popular form of kung fu, of which there are many variations and styles, it originates from the bhuddist monks of the shaolin temple), Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Tai Chi(often practised for medical reasons), Baji and countless other styles numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands. Kung Fu is a very broad Term.


Capoeria:
This martial art originated in africa, but was taken to the americas by african slaves. Like many other types of martial arts it is designed to look like a dance, but be effective in combat as well. Today it is often practiced as a dance rather than a martial art.


Brazillian Ju Jitsu:
This offshoot of traditional ju jitsu was created and is carried by the Gracie family. It bears many differences to its japanese relative and has recently proven its worth in tournaments and is part of a craze sweeping the martial arts world.


Muay Thai(Thai Boxing):
Thai Boxing originates from Thailand, it is known for its vicious methods. It has many traditional aspects common to the asian arts, but also shares much with western kickboxing.


Boxing:
Although boxing is mostly a sport (because it only involves offensive and defensive moves of the upper body, leaving the legs and waist vunerable) it is often mixed with other martial arts to form a complete system. Its simplicity is its advantage.


Kickboxing:
Similar to boxing, but including offensive and defensive strikes with the feet and knees. Again, this martial art uses simplicity as its advantage.


Wrestling:
Western wrestling evolved from european methods dating back to ancient greece. It is a popular high school sport in the U.S. and although wrestling leagues like the W.W.E. are fabricated wrestling is still a very effective martial art.


Mixed Martial Arts:
This term describes a system of fighting made for competition out of several different martial arts. MMA is frequently seen in events like the ultimate fighting champoinship. MMA can be made out of virtually any art, but sport oriented arts are usually favored, traditions of the arts are not practiced, a modern sport-type outlook is common.

I am not sure this helps, but....

I say it is a martial art. This is how I see it. Each one above is it's own martial art.

Just my 2 cents!

[Dragonknight]

Something else that caught my attention was the use of a ranking system in KB.

How can this be done?

Expecially by a KB that does not have a background in any other martial arts?

Being trained in Tae Kwon Do. I guess I could incorperate TKD and KB together. Then the KB can say he is a so and so belt, but now he has taken on 2 arts of training. So now he/she is or could be classified as a mixed martial artists. Hhhhmmm.... Why not? TKD is also considered a sport(An Olympic Sport like Judo). Maybe not as combative as KB, but none the less a sport all the same. (Sorry was thinking about the question is KB a martial art.)

Ranking systems in KB...I think is a great idea in a bussiness perspective for a younger generation of fighters. Having a structure in your school could bring in more students, but remember the student must understand the difference from one martial art to the next. (Example: be sure the student understands that the martial art KB is a sport not street self defence although it can be very effective when one has aquired great traing and understanding of the art of KB.)

In todays world everything is a piece of paper. It is sad but that is the way it is. So, if Buddy sees the Grand Black belt Master Certificate on your wall he may be prone to bring his kids to train with you. Now of course this is the nieve person. As we all know Buddy should research the instructor check out refferences things like that, but hey who does that anyway...LOL.

I also have my own take on rank. I am a 4rd Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do and a 4th Degree Black Belt in Mixed Martial Arts. I also have have a 1st Degree Black Belt in Kickboxing. Hhhmmm...sound good huh? Yes, I can hold my own, but would never dare to take on a Kickboxer who has even only been training hard for a year or even six months. My point is these ranks I hold tell you my knowledge, time, experiance and dedication to martial arts. Thats all they are something thats says I like martial arts alot. I do not by saying this mean these do not mean I cannot fight, but tell you that the belts the rankings tell a story. Take a KB fighter every time he fights he has an experiance a story win or loose. Sometime you take home a medel, trophy or even a Title Belt, those to some are maybe not enough or may not actually have the abilaty to aquire those type of recognitions. Then that happens he/she drops out, but we can't have that. Why? because thats the money we need to be able to run our Gym so we can train our fighters. Some might say...LOL...

It's late and I could go on forever about martial arts.

I believe a structured ranking system is good and I hope to see more of it in KB Gyms. Just think if you don't some one else will. KB is evovling I say evolve with it. Just like I have with Mixed Martial Arts combining TKD, KB, Boxing, Street Self Defence.

Once again my 2 cents and opinions.