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James Mitchell
06-12-2005, 07:07 PM
KICK INTERNATIONAL UNSAFE TOURNAMENTS

For those who didn’t know, KICK (Kickboxing’s Incompetent Crackhead Kooks) International held their Pan American Tournament (should have been called Texas Tournament) this weekend June 10-12 2005. I attended this “tournament” bringing one welterweight fighter to compete. The events that transpired would awe even the most underhanded event and was the worst Tournament I have seen in thirty years.

Before I begin I know that most of you will know that Tommy Alcozer Sr. promoted this Tournament. What you should also know is that Tommy Sr. is a friend of mine and still is. I find this hard to write because of this, but necessary. Most of what transpired at this tournament was the responsibility of the KICK Representative and the Sanctioning Body KICK International. Tommy Sr. tried to rectify certain aspects of this event only to be cancelled by the KICK Representative, Ted Welch V.P. of Kick International.

To begin this story, we left Little Rock Arkansas Wednesday June 8, 2005 for Plainview Texas a 650 mile trip one way. We had already done a favor For Tommy Sr. the week before by moving my welterweight up one weight class to super welterweight to spread out the events. We arrived the morning of the ninth of June checked into the hotel room. After getting some rest I telephoned Tommy Sr. to let him Know we had arrived. We went down to his school to let my fighter warm up and practice for this weekend’s tournament. I talked with Tommy Sr. and asked if there would be a Judges Clinic as I would like to be a KICK certified Judge. Tommy replied not today. I said okay.

Friday Morning June 10, 2005. Arrived at the Ollie Liner Center for weigh in and Doctor Certification. I found out that because Tommy Jr. was competing in welter weight that the other fighters did not want to compete against him and moved up weight class to avoid having to fight him. End result, Tommy Jr. does not get to compete because the other fighters had NO HEART to fight him and my fighter now to heavy to move down to give him a bout and the entire schedule had to be redone. My fighter changed weight for nothing and now at the bottom of his weight class, my first thought was, what champions. Next I met Ted Welch V.P. for Kick International and Event Representative. He handed me a computer generated business card printed on perforated stationary was dressed shabbily and looked as though he had come off a three day beng. He was accompanied by his wife (I think) who looked the same. They set up on the stage in front of the ring with a computer to organize the bouts. The Building was a NON-SMOKING building and there was dozens of very young athletes running about and there she sat chain smoking cigarettes in front of these kids while in an official capacity and no one in charge said a word. To say the least I was highly UNIMPRESSED.

Now the fun begins. My fighter weighs in gets his physical and is Okayed by the doctor. His opponent is nowhere to be found is NOT weighed in and is NOT cleared by the Doctor. Next the rules meeting. No role of the fighters is taken and again my fighter’s opponent is not present and does NOT attend the rules meeting. About 15 minuets before the first bout is to begin Tommy Sr. asked if I would be a Judge. Now mind you I do have good experience in Kickboxing and have judged events before and I feel I am qualified but I am NOT certified as a KICK International Judge. I had previously inquired about a clinic and test to certify me as I have no problem showing I can Judge before I judge but this did not happen and here I am judging. It made me wonder as to the qualifications of the other judges as this was the Pan American Tournament, a major tournament and I knew none of them. Tommy Alcozer Jr. was to be the Referee since he no longer had a bout. I don’t believe he was a certified referee and his attitude in the ring was one who did not want to be there. As his attention often wandered outside of the ring during the bouts. The Time Keeper used a cell phone to time the rounds and rest periods and was shouting instructions to Tommy’s fighters during the bout. I could barely hear the ring gong and I was sitting next to him and the gong. The KICK Representative did NOT sit ringside and had his head buried behind the computer on the stage 10 feet from the ring and payed little to no attention to the bouts in progress. No one wore ID badges to signify their official capacity at the tournament and the tournament began haphazardly. The first bout begins and ends with a clear and decisive winner. Alas the other fighter is declared winner. Later the decision is reversed and the rightful winner is declared with no reason given for the reversal. The day events concluded with no more questionable decisions and had some good action.

Friday June 10, 2005 evening events. Fighters are reassembled for rules meeting. Again no role taken and again my fighter’s opponent not present. I asked Tommy Sr. where was my fighter’s opponent. He stated that he was at work in Herdferd (a city about an hour away) and would arrive before the bout. Tommy Sr. knew he had NOT weighed in been cleared by the Doctor and had NOT attended the rules meetings. The hair on the back of my neck was beginning to rise. I wrapped my fighters hand and realized there was no one to check the wrap or sign it off and that no other fighters hand wraps had been checked or signed off. Donning of gloves had not been witnessed or checked and some gloves not even taped much less signed off. NO one was checking anything for fighter safety. I should have pulled my fighter that is my fault. But we had traveled so far and spent a lot of money for this tournament. I let that cloud my judgment, but it won’t happen again. My fighter’s opponent showed up about 15 minuets before his scheduled bout. No one weighs him in nor completes a physical nor briefs him on the rules meeting. He wraps his hand and dons gloves and NO checks are completed.

My fighter enters the ring wearing long pants and proper safety gear (Top Ten) that cost him a lot of money to ensure his safety and his opponent’s safety. This is a Full Contact Rules Bout. His opponent steps in the ring with plain gym shorts and appearing to weigh about 160-165 pounds. This is a 153 lb bout. His wraps and gloves unchecked. The bell rings and the bout begins. My fighter lands two three punch combos and two kicks right off the bat. His opponent turtles up (balls up close to the canvas) and stays there most of the bout. My fighter continues aggressively landing punches and kicks where he can on his completely ingressive opponent. Every time his opponent came up my fighter landed punch combos and kicks three times knocking his opponent five or six feet back to the ropes. His opponent landing only eight punches and no kicks the entire bout. He did however attempt to boot to boot sweep my fighter but fouled by striking the ankle and calves of my fighter bringing him off balance causing his glove to touch the canvas. These were ruled as knockdowns and my fighter given standing eight counts even though Boot to Boot sweeps do NOT count as knockdowns according to KICK international Rules and Regulations Page 1 Section 5 Last line “A successful sweep is not considered a knockdown.” In addition my fighter’s opponent did not make his kick count two of three rounds. The kick counter counted his sweeps as kicks. Page 1 section 5 line 5 “A sweep is not a kick and shall not be judged as such.” In addition Page 2 section 7 paragraph A line 3 “if a contestant fails to achieve the minimum-kicking requirement in a majority of the scheduled rounds the contestant may be disqualified.” Page 2 section 7 paragraph B line 1 “A contestant intentionally avoiding any physical contact with his opponent will receive a warning from the referee. If a contestant continues to avoid a confrontation with his opponent after receiving a warning during that round he may be penalized by the referee.” My fighter’s opponent fouled his sweep four times and struck the back of his head two times during the bout.

The third round. Much of the same as mentioned before with one big exception, the gash. In the last thirty seconds of round three my fighter’s opponent lands a pawed ( using the wrist side of the glove at the wrist) shot to the back of my fighters head leaving a ½” wide ½” long and 1/8 deep gash that is punctuated in nature in the opening of the head gear back right section. This gash bleeds profusely down the head and back of my fighter. The bout ends. The next is classic they announce my fighter’s opponent as winner by a landslide. Even though my fighter never fell down or went into the turn buckle or was kicked in the head. The doctor examined the gash and concluded a small probably metal object punctured my fighters head. No one examined his opponents gloves or wraps for any evidence of a foreign object. I did what I was supposed to do, I left the ring with my fighter quietly and professionally. There were only two bouts left and I waited for the end of the nights events and approached Tommy Alcozer Sr. and lodged a protest asking if he would review the tape of the bout that my fighter’s dad had made for fouls and for a suspect wound not normally found as a result of a ring fight. I also asked to see his opponents weigh in and doctor’s certification of his opponent. He agreed to view the tape only. When I returned with the tape Tommy informed me that Ted Welch would NOT allow review of the tape without a formal protest and of course a $100.00 fee. The other request of weigh in and doctor’s certification were denied. Also NO investigation as to the cause of the gash to my fighter’s head would be conducted even though it was an injury that does not normally occur in the ring. If I wanted to I could file a protest they would send it to committee and I would know in 30 days and if found in my favor I would be refunded the $100.00 plus the tournament fee of $30.00. This meant my fighter could not win the tournament no matter what, that the $450.00 spent to attend this tournament was for nothing the 1300 miles total travel for nothing and time off from work his father made to be there for nothing. I told him I had no reason to believe that KICK would even actually review these blatant and dangerous fouls or the credibility of the tournament as he was already aware of many KICK rule infractions that were ignored and would only be another $100.00 wasted on a BS organization such as KICK.

Even the crowd which was all home town could not believe what had happened and the decision rendered and voiced there objections but it none of this mattered. We packed up our gear and on the way out Tommy Alcozer Sr. and Jr. stopped me on the way out. Tommy Sr. said I hope this doesn’t damage our friendship. I told him it doesn’t but that I would write this story and place it on the websites and any media that would take it. He asked me not to, to which I gave no reply. Tommy Jr. (who was referee) said he called it the way he saw it. I thought about your statement Tommy Jr., I am only calling it like it was.

I will never enter a fighter in KICK International sanctioned event again nor will I recommend any other fighter enter a KICK International sanctioned event. I hold KICK International and Ted Welch responsible for the tournament and the injury my fighter sustained as a result of poor safety management. They failed in their responsibility to run a safe competitive tournament I don’t consider their organization credible or safe. After this many of my fighters are questioning whether they want to continue in Kickboxing. After all the biggest reason to attend sanctioned events is SAFETY and fair judging. I even question the world title bout between my fighter and Tommy Jr. back in February 19, 2005 where it was a close fight but now I question the judging and the event as a whole. KICK International is the POOREST example of a sanctioning body I have seen.

We now Prepare for the IKF regional next weekend and then the IKF NAC. Mr. Fossum I know we haven’t always seen eye to eye and my post can be blasting but I will take the time to thank you and give you the respect you do deserve. I have no fear of your tournament not being safe for fighters and I commend you and those of you who work hard to ensure a better and better Organization. Perhaps in the future we can work more together for that goal because I do believe the IKF is the best Sanctioning Body out there and the safest one for our young fighters. My post aren’t to tear you down but to hopefully make a better brick in the foundation. Thanks for your dedication and thanks to all those who make up the IKF I would like to be one too.

As for KICK International I guess I will have to chalk that one up for experience. For all who read this take heed a bout is not a bout and who you fight under makes a difference choose carefully. I for one choose IKF.

For all who read this, know this, if you have an event and it is not on the up and up, if safety or otherwise violations occur, I will document and tape your event and you too will wind up on a post or newspaper article or on my new website for kickboxing which will premier in two weeks and air your event in the judge for yourself section. I am becoming a rules and regulations master in all sanctioning bodies they will start calling me for interpretation I will know them so well. At the same time if your event excels I will post and comment on that as well. This is what destroys our sport the most. I will attend events whether I have fighters in it or not. Everyone lets clean up and do it for the sport not ourselves. Without good clean and fair bouts ranking means nothing, titles mean nothing don’t let our sport drop to that category. No more unfair hometown advantages, no more stacking bouts and padding opponents, NO MORE!

James Mitchell

P.J. Reilly
06-13-2005, 05:20 AM
Sounds terrible, I almost got time off of work to go to that one too. Is your guy ok?

Pete P
06-13-2005, 06:01 AM
I fought on KICK sanctioned events in the past and never had any serious problems, but they were smaller deals, not tournaments. Sounds like this one was messed up all the way around from the word "go". How many fighters were registered and how many spectators were there? KICK has their world championships in Rockford in October. I thought about taking some fighters to it since it is fairly close, but maybe we will just go watch this time out.

P.J. Reilly
06-13-2005, 08:39 AM
Pete, I was thinking about attending the tournament in Rockford too. I would like to do the IKF NA but my wife is due the following week!

Pete P
06-13-2005, 08:56 AM
[QUOTE=P.J. Reilly]Pete, I was thinking about attending the tournament in Rockford too. I would like to do the IKF NA but my wife is due the following week![/QUOTE]

P.J., Take her to Orlando with ya. All the excitement should push her into faster contractions and she can have your baby in the RING!! Whadaya think? I mean, hell, the "ring doctor" will be on hand and everything. Think about all the network news channels and top newspapers that would cover the story. It would make history :D

James Mitchell
06-13-2005, 09:14 AM
P.J., My guy is okay thanks for asking. We have been giving the tape a closer review and have found some interesting back shots in his opponents corner that will be turned over to the Texas Athletic Commission for action.

Pete as for the world tournament, I have the number one contender for the welterweight title and we are NOT going. I know it is a different promoter at he same time Ted Welch is the V.P. for KICK International and that didn't seem to matter. The Rules and Regulations KICK has looks good on paper, to bad they don't follow them. The US Tournamaent was cancelled for reasons unknown. Your fighters safety is not worth the "world title" which has little credibility at best. Remember your not from Illinois, short of a knockout good luck. Curtis emailed me and I can't post what he thought of KICK

As for the Pan Am Tournament. About 35 fighters. 1 from Arkansas, 6 from St. Louis Mo. (home state to KICK) and 2 from Norman OK. the rest from Texas and all but three local to Plainview.

I hate to advise you on the world tournamant actually. I don't want your fighters to miss an opportunity on just what I say, at the same time that is what I thought when we went to Plainview. My fighter will tell you it is not worth it. His Mother wants him to quit kickboxing now as she see it as a back alley sport that is not safe nor regulated. I am finding it harder and harder to prove her wrong. Besides whoever heard of a tournament for a major title that doesn't have to be worked toward by climbing up the ranks. I could bring a fighter with five fights and win a world title or be ripped off for one. Kickboxing is not a Karate tournament, it is Boxing with Kicks, Title should be earned not paid for. Just my opinion.

James Mitchell

James Mitchell
06-13-2005, 10:29 AM
Pete, I forgot. There were about 50 or 60 spectators at the Pan Am Tournament. Most were family of contestants.

P.J. Pete is right, you could be famous! Really attend the NAC.

To me the NAC allows opponent match up that may not be possible otherwise. most importantly (at least to me) it brings fighters together in not only competitive spirit but also in comradiship as they are in their own league of sports. In my day (long time ago) even fierce competitors were friends outside the ring. It is that aspect that the human spirit grows and love of the sport reinforced. So whether competing or spectating, GO enjoy the atmosphere where champions roam and spirits soar. I love this sport!

James Mitchell

Jason (fight geek)
06-13-2005, 03:49 PM
James,

Even if everything you said is true, and I wasn't there so I don't know, and will take your word for it, I don't think talking about how a guys wife looks is cool.
I am sure your wife is hot so everyone elses looks bad, but,
Your comments on the event (which were informative) will have more merit if you leave comments like that out.

but hey that is me.

Just a poor geek trying to make his way in the world.
Jason

James Mitchell
06-13-2005, 04:42 PM
Jason Geek, first of all his wife was also serving in an official capacity so how one looks and what one does when in an official capacity does have merit. As far as taking my word for it I could care less what you believe. But as a matter of reference I video taped the event. This thread was to inform fighters, trainers that this could happen to them or their fighter. I don't think arm chair fighters and trainers qualify. This was an unsafe event for our young fighters and all you can say is "I don't think talking about how a guys wife looks is cool." You come on and read threads and try to pick them apart or you kiss a** depending on who it is that has posted. People like you always want to be someone but never quite make it so you live thru others. The facts speak for themselves and quite frankly I don't care what you think has merit. When you have earned the right as a fighter and trainer you may have merit until then you don't and that is YOU.

By the way my wife was beautiful when she died years ago when I had two young boys to raise. As Pete would put it "Tread Lightly."

James Mitchell

Pammypanda1
06-13-2005, 05:28 PM
and Pete said that when someone was talking about his wife.......... who probably isnt' anywhere near as glamorous or "feminine" as he should have. However, she does have a brain and does understand Geek's post but I don't understand why you feel you have the right to judge everyone the way you do. Geek didn't say anything bad about your wife and didn't like the way you chose to make comments concerning someone elses. He also is in no way even close to an "armchair fighter". He has genuine talent and passion for the sport, even if he does prefer FCR. :D
My sympathies on the loss of your wife. Hopefully your boys are intelligent enough to know not to follow their father in the way he treats and judges others.

I found your need to describe what the official and his wife looked like as a little unsettling also.
"He handed me a computer generated business card printed on perforated stationary was dressed shabbily and looked as though he had come off a three day beng. He was accompanied by his wife (I think) who looked the same."
First of all, I think you meant to type "Binge", secondly, I also print off our business cards myself on "perforated" cards, and thirdly, I don't dress like a princess and after working through some medical issues this past winter, look like I just came off of a 6 month binge. Ya wanna judge me by the way I look right now also?

Who are you to comment on what a person should look like and do you know these officials personally to know their personal situation as far as their clothing allowance or eating habits or even medical background? Did they lose some luggage? Are they paying extensive medical bills for a sickly child so their own money for nicer, more elegant clothes to impress you is very tight? Now, if their body odor was offensive, you could comment on that. If they talked with their mouth full or picked their nose, you could comment on bad manners.

The fact that she was chain smoking in a non-smoking area is offensive, I would have walked up to her and politely asked her to smoke somewhere else. If you were so concerned about your fighter's safety why didn't you open your mouth then BEFORE you let your fighter get into the ring. What happened was just as much YOUR FAULT as KICKs if your story is as accurate as you claim it to be.
You, as the trainer, are responsible for your fighters safety. If you weren't agreeing with what was taking place before he stepped into the ring, then you should have spoke up BEFORE he got into the ring instead waiting to tell your side of it on here. I do also realize there are always two sides to every story, so forgive me if I don't take your story as the complete truth.

Ray Thompson
06-13-2005, 06:49 PM
James,
I too had a simular experience with KICK. I vowed to never participate in there tournaments again. It was a mess. We were told one thing that wasn't even close to the way it really was. The Welch's appearance sounds just like they appeared in the event we attended also. I do think officials should set forth an appearance becoming of the position. As far as her smoking, I agree with Pam, maybe you should have said something, that is if you had time but that is me and what do I know? Good luck on your project, please keep me informed. I want to hear more about it.

James Mitchell
06-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Thanks Ray, for confirming at least that KICK and the Welchs are less than professional. Also lets people know it can happen to anyone even Ray Thompson. So according to pammypanda I guess it was your fault as well. At least I'm in good company. I did ask Tommy about the smoking but was waved off as don't do it, perhaps I should have pushed the point. Also thanks for stating the obvious about appearance and position. Mainly thanks for believing the truth because you do know a lot and you do merit listening to and I do care about your opinions. I don't say that lightly and not because you agree or disagree with me. As for myself I do take part of the blame and stated so in my story. But SAFETY is why we use sanctioning bodies.

As for some of the other post? Never mind, not worth it.

Ray, I will have more information avaible in mid July. I still Want Stephen, Peyton, and perhaps Evan (I think) yes we have amateurs too make submissions. Promoter calls will be next. At that time promoting protocal can be negotiated and I believe I can get all involved satisfied. I know Rob Z. wants to do some could use your expertise as well. Until then get me those submissions.

James Mitchell

Pammypanda1
06-13-2005, 09:21 PM
Ray Thompson was at fault also? For what? For agreeing they were not dressed as professionally as they should have been? What Ray didn't do was come on a public board and put people down for their appearance in the tactless way you did. If you felt they were not dressed as professional as you feel they should have been, there are far more respectful ways to state the fact. Again, I don't feel their "Shabby" appearance should have been made a point of, it was the failure to comply with the safety issues stated by the sanctioning body that should be the issue.

Yes, you should have pushed the point of the smoking issue. Many are very sensative to smoke and the obvious disrespect of smoking in a non-smoking area around fighters should have been brought to their attention. At that point, if they failed to respect the request, you would have yet another "offense" to add to your list.

Even without sanctioning bodies, if you felt uncomfortable about so many issues, you should have walked away with your fighter. It may have been a "waste" of money, but wasn't this ending even more of a waste?

The midwest must be very blessed with exceptional promoters. With the exception of one IKF sanctioned event we have attended, all of the other events we have been to (IKF and other sanctioning bodies) have been very professionally ran and the pairings remarkable.

James Mitchell
06-13-2005, 11:31 PM
Blah, blah ,blah. chatter chatter.

Like sand thru the hour glass, so are the days of our lives

I'm sorry pammypanda, did you say something?

P.J. Reilly
06-14-2005, 03:28 AM
"The midwest must be very blessed with exceptional promoters."

Yes, you are. Trust me, it is a whole lot worse in other places.

Jason (fight geek)
06-14-2005, 06:23 AM
James James,

Can't we all just get along.

First I think you are looking for something that wasn't in my post.
I of course agree that professional dress is important.
I think teams should be in suits and ties at meetings and travel to be honest.

Don't tell me to tread lightly. I was making a reference that your wife was good looking. Of course I am sorry she is dead. We all have dead relatives that we miss and love and cherish. You need to quit taking everything as an afront to you and start something.
If you are thinking I mentioned your wife knowing she was dead and are telling me to tread lightly because I mentioned her and to put me down then you are insane. Anyone who knows me knows I would never do that. OK, moving on.

I pick one part of your story out that I think could make your account even more powerful, and you bash me? Huh? Are you above criticism?

I even said that I will take your word for what happened. Why the hostility?

I think you have some good things to say, and I did enjoy your accounting of the event. I just think if you are going to be an ambassador of the sport and it sound like you have a lot of good things going on, then you should not just discount what people say here. I disagree with what people say, and I try to put it in ways that is somewhat funny, or interesting. I don't think I have ever been malicious in my retorts to people. I don't play that game, I don't demean people to make myself above them. (first malicious reply coming...) I think however you do. Sort it out.

If you want me to be serious on here in regards to you I will.

If your guy was mismatched that badly, Pull him for god sake. Sure it sucks you had to travel.
But after all the BS you had to put up with (and I am saying I believe you...James I believe you...I think you speak the truth etc.etc. ), are you surprised at what happened?

I do hope your fighter is ok.

You can discount what I say and what Pam says and others on this board who don't agree with you, but like it or not, we are the grass roots future of this sport and in terms of fans, promoters, and fighters, we ROCK.

thanks for reading

I still will let you buy me a beer when we meet....yes then I will buy you one.
Or soda.. or whatever.

Geek

Pammypanda1
06-14-2005, 07:20 AM
[QUOTE=James Mitchell]Blah, blah ,blah. chatter chatter.

Like sand thru the hour glass, so are the days of our lives

I'm sorry pammypanda, did you say something?[/QUOTE]Nope, didn't say a damn thing, you must be hullicinating James, I hear that happens to people after they listen to themselves talking for so long without opening their minds and ears to others. Also to the ones that watch too many soap operas that they can quote lines from their intros.

Randy Pogue
06-14-2005, 08:23 AM
I wish I could find all the right words to explain, but it would take too long. Let me sum up. You guys, all of you, have too much free time on your hands, and don't spend enough of it reading each others posts. The pettiness is nauseating, from point to counterpoint. Yeah, I know, I don't have to read it, but I did, and now I'm writing about it.

Petty to focus on appearance.
Petty to act like you've never judged on appearance.
Petty to twist neutral words into a personal attack.
Petty to respond in kind rather than clarify.

Yup. All of it. And just as bad is reading and not paying attention to the words or intent. There are things being written here, clearly even, that are being misinterpreted and responded to off the cuff. It's not like you didn't catch all the words. You are allowed to re-read people's posts.

Speaking of which, you are also allowed to reread your own. Spell-checking is permissible as well.

In case anyone thinks I'm singling you out, I'm not. In case anyone thinks I'm talking about everyone else, I'm talking about you.

Grow up, be productive, say what you mean, say it clearly. Most of all, stop replying when you don't know what you are replying to. READ the posts that are written. Stop inventing drama where none exists, and stop asking questions or flying off the handle when you haven't taken the time to read and understand someone's point of view.

Why do I feel like a friggin' 8th grade teacher? You people, yes, YOU, are the ones chiming in about taking the sport to the next level. What next level? You can't even have an adult conversation, and you want to take a sport worldwide?

Randy "Romper Room" Pogue

Pammypanda1
06-14-2005, 08:54 AM
Sorry Dad! :D Does this mean I'm grounded? :o

For the record, I never stated I have never judged by appearance. I have. But I have also been judged by appearance when no one was aware of any of the circumstances, which is what usually makes a person realize that you cannot judge on appearance. Underneath some of the most unappealing shells lies some of the most intelligent and interesting people. And in this case, his dissatisfaction of the tournament was not based on the KICK rep's appearance so the point was mute.

Randy Pogue
06-14-2005, 09:01 AM
It's moot.:p

Jason (fight geek)
06-14-2005, 09:06 AM
Mr. Pogue,

Can I go use the bathroom?

:eek:

Pammypanda1
06-14-2005, 09:11 AM
Thank you for the correction sir, I knew it didn't look quite right. :o

Jason was pulling my hair, he shouldnt get to go to the bathroom. Make him hold it til his face turns green! :D

David Oudthone
06-14-2005, 09:34 AM
Hey Mitch, Dave here. I am glad then I did not go either. Hate to seen all of that happen to you. I agree with you that officials are suppose to be in professional attire at anytime. For a sanctioning body to work you have to have "Officials, Referrees, kickcounters, doctors, and people who work on the event so most promoters dont have to deal with it. Let's be professional! Oh..I forgot, this is amatuers, or fighters that is, Promoters are suppose to be professional.

Talk to you soon Mitch, call you later.

Dave

James Mitchell
06-14-2005, 01:34 PM
I think you meant hallucinating, and you are right about one thing. you haven't said a damn thing.


James,

"Even if everything you said is true, and I wasn't there so I don't know, and will take your word for it."

Jason, this statement indicates that you doubt my word, but since you were not there you would have take my word for it. Whether this was malicous or not, won't change it's conotation. Why I posted this was to make people more aware of what can happen even under the flag of a Sanctioning Body. Replies of simular experiences with the same or different Sanctioning Body, or good experience with the same or different Sanctioning Body. Mainly a serious discussion about a real problem that is destroying our sport

"I disagree with what people say, and I try to put it in ways that is somewhat funny, or interesting."

I agree that sometimes keeping it light or from becoming too serious is good and making it interesting is always good as long as all involved find it interesting. But, do you honestly believe, that when someone is injured in a way that is not normal to the ring and is a serious threat to the sport of kickboxing(because I assure you it is not an isolated event), an injury that could have been much more serious. Do you believe this is a post to take lightly, to make somewhat funny. I wonder, if Ray Thompson had posted this instead of me, would your remarks be the same. You don't have to answer me honestly, but you do yourself.

"If your guy was mismatched that badly, Pull him for god sake"

You missed the point completely. My guy was not mismatched. in fact if it had been judged fairly my guy dominated the bout. The post wasn't about his match persay, but about a Sanctioning Body disregarding safety regulations and not investigating blatant fouls and suspect injuries.

As you know I am contacting fighters to compete in a series event. I have emailed 305 fighters this last month. 192 emailed me back saying they gave up kickboxing because of the state it was in. Three of those were former World Champions and two are current World Champions. They had two main complaints 1. Safety (lack of faith in a Sanctioning body) 2. Unfair promoters and crap events with very little fight money. Now mind you these guys had excellent winning records or I would not have contacted them. Do you think this should be taken lightly.

"If you want me to be serious on here in regards to you I will."

In a word YES, it is called respect. I rarely come on here to be trival and when I do, I don't do it in a serious thread. I'm saying there is a time to be poking at one another and a time to band together to discuss the relavant issue not how it is put. If my description of the Welchs' so offended you start a thread on my style of writing and we can bash each other if that is what you want and pammypanda can join in. You guys can tag team. But when you do on the thread that is serious you take away from it's purpose. So I give you a sign of respect, Please do not pick apart my post (the serious ones) and start a bash session. Start a seperate thread and I will gladly debate, bash whatever on that thread.

As for me I am gulity of responding on my own thread and fueling the fire, DAMN PRIDE. But no more. I will NOT repond to petty argument on my post. Serious inquiries and legitmate responses YES. If you don't start a seperate thread, I will. I feel now the importance of this post has been lost and that is my fault as much as anyones. But, I have learned from my mistakes and will not repeat them.

Thanks again Randy, for reminding me of what is important and it isn't me, it is what I do. This may be a game to some. For others it is a career and a means of livelyhood. It is young athletes bieng cheated out of their dream, it is older warrior athletes disillusioned with what was once great and could be great again. it is about achievment and the human spirit. I go to an event with fighters, we are in the blue corner fight room and hear athletes say eveyone ready to loose tonight because we are the out of towners. They say this because they feel short of a knockout they can not win a decision no matter what. It is about good Promoters who get classed with the not so good ones simply because they promote. Careful and fair judges who are always questioned because other judges who are bias. At any rate Randy I'm taking corospondence courses to get out of the eighth grade again and graduate back to professional, once again, thanks.

James Mitchell

Jason (fight geek)
06-14-2005, 02:19 PM
James,

I think you bring up good points.

1. I did believe what you said. I only brought up one point in your entire missive that struck me as off. If you don't believe that I believe you, I can't really do much but say I do.

2. I meant mismatch as to weight. I could have read that incorrectly that the guy was over weight.

3. I would say the same thing to Mr. T. if he said someone's wife looked bad and didn't state they were an official and it seemed odd. I may have missed that as well. I didn't realize she was an official.

4. I do think you are unnecessarily harsh on me for one comment. Trying to make me look bad for one thing I said. Because I am below you? I could be wrong, on this so do you think I am below you?

I guess I don't understand people who can't laugh at themselves and you might not understand people who can.

OK, I am done too.
Look forward to your next thread.
Don't be mad if I comment on it. :eek:

talk to you soon!
Jason

James Mitchell
06-14-2005, 03:19 PM
Jason fair enough, I believe you believe me. Too many believes!

Listen I don't think you or anyone is beneath me or above me. I sometimes think you speak out of turn, maybe I am wrong but even if I am not, you can't learn in silence. Perhaps I am harsh somtimes (to the point is my way) whether the point is right or wrong. My youngest son (both grown now) even told me my post on you was harsh. I can laugh at myself, I just didn't think the post was the place to do it. My fighter a young fighter was injured in a manner that should not occured and believe me I do hold myself responsible. We are getting to used to the mismatches, unfairness and now safety. Perhaps I was as angry at myself for allowing that as much as if not more so than your comments. It is hard being a trainer who cares. About his fighters, the sport and how it is conducted. I have been an athlete all my life, I suppose that may make me to sensitive about the subject. I have read some of your other post and found it interesting. I know new talent will arise, but it is like a garden, if you don't soften up the old soil first, it will break up instead of surround the new plant and the new plant can't grow for lack of support.

As for tread lightly, I know people loose loved ones but that was the one. I spent half my life with a mate and when it goes, part of you goes with it. I know you could not have possibly known this and hopefully not experience it. Anyway thats my "excuse" but I was flat out wrong I apologize.

At any rate let us begin anew.

I have a favor to ask. Re-read the post, give me your thoughts and post them. Read the post as if you were the trainer or fighter or parent of the fighter. That I would find very interesting to read.

P.S. I don't drink but love slushies, see you at the NAC.

James Mitchell

Pammypanda1
06-14-2005, 03:23 PM
[QUOTE=James Mitchell]I think you meant hallucinating, and you are right about one thing. you haven't said a damn thing. James Mitchell[/QUOTE]
You sound like you need to get out of the house a little more often. What I would really like to post I can't due to the younger viewers on this board. You are no better then anyone else on this board, James. Be extremely careful, because self erected pedestals have a tendancy to crumble faster then those built by others.

As you know I am contacting fighters to compete in a series event. I have emailed 305 fighters this last month. 192 emailed me back saying they gave up kickboxing because of the state it was in. Three of those were former World Champions and two are current World Champions. They had two main complaints 1. Safety (lack of faith in a Sanctioning body) 2. Unfair promoters and crap events with very little fight money. Now mind you these guys had excellent winning records or I would not have contacted them. Do you think this should be taken lightly.
I find this statement VERY interesting. If the safety is the #1 concern of fighters and unfair promoters is #2, why is the IKF not larger then it is? Every other message board I have been on has had MANY willing and ready to post their complaints about the IKF and how involved it "has" to be in everything especially the issue of safety and protective gear. They also dislike the fact that there are rules to follow if you have an IKF sanctioned event, yet you say that all of these fighters are quitting because of these very things?
If there are THAT many fighters unhappy with those very things, then I don't understand why those fighters are not only fighting for IKF Sanctioned events.

Again, the midwest must be VERY blessed with quality promoters along with extremely qualified IKF reps compared to the other states. Don't the IKF reps in other states oversee the events the same as the ones we use around here?

William
06-14-2005, 04:34 PM
Hey Mitch,

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experience you had at the KICK event. I hope your kickboxer recovers quickly. I hope he sticks with it.

Best Regards,

William

Ronnie Copeland
06-14-2005, 07:15 PM
I am not trying to stir the pot here but I have been reading this thread for the last couple of days. I TRIED to stay out as long as possible. First off I support KICKBOXING despite the letters. It sounds to me like Mr Mitchell is searching for things to complain about. I know Ted Welch and he is an older guy. He doesn't dress up to current fashion I am certian. Since when does being fashinable or good looking have anything to do with inforcing the rules? Hell if being good looking was a prerequiste to promoting then Ray Thompson wouldn't ever be allowed to promote and I don't even want to get started on his fashion sense. (lol) Seriously, if you had a problem with the lady's smoking you shold have said something then. If not you missed your chance. You original post has quite a few holes in it. Like Pete Peterson metioned in his post in another thread. Originally you stated that the fighter came to the ring in his gym shorts with shins and no footpads with his toes hanging out. You took it off! Why remove that did your recollections change? You listed the number of punches landed by both fighters and the kicks landed. Pretty impressive for a guy working a corner to be able to remember all of that in such accuracy. You said that the guy didn't kick enough and they actually were counting sweeps as kicks. My question is how did you know what was counted? In Kick International there are no kick cards. The kick counters report the number at the end of each round. You seriously want us to believe that the fighter put a metal object in his glove!? Was Panama Lewis in his corner? LOL Were you in the dressing room? Did you actually witness that the man's gloves and wraps were not inspected?This is the exact reason that kickboxing is where it is today fighting among ourselves and the different organizations. We need to band together for the common good. If KICK does well kickboxing does well and that goes for the IKF, WKA, ISKA and so on. Please be nice I am merely discussing it is not personal Mr Mitchell. To have people discuss is part of the risk of posting on a public messageboard. See you at the NAC.

James Mitchell
06-14-2005, 07:24 PM
To answer Ronnie and Pete. The original post was done in MS word and posted I had deleted a paragraph of other bout that the fighters were fcr and in shorts and shin guards. and mistated his opponent. As for the rest I videotaped the event put it on dvd and was able to go thru the bout frame by frame if I chose. That is how I was able to be more accurate. I don't know what other holes your infering but I'm listening. Yes I'm complaining but I am also informing.

James Mitchell

James Mitchell
06-14-2005, 07:42 PM
Ronnie I forgot to answer other questions, rather than edit I will repost.

There were kick cards at this event they show clearly on the tape. I know that their rules say different.

Opponent wraps were NOT signed off. He arrived only minutes before the bout and a bout was in progress and no one left ringside or podium of officials.

I asked the kick counter if he counted the sweeps as kicks, he said yes we always do.

I seriously know my fighter had a gash according to the ringside doctor was made by a small metal object rounded in nature. I also have a shot of his opponent giving a pawed shot to that location in the third round. At the end of the fight his opponent has his left glove removed by his cornerman and his right glove removed by someone on the floor at canvas level and the glove slipped off fast. The glove then removed from site, momentarily then both gloves placed together and removed from the ring area.

The reason kickboxing is in the shape it is in is promoters and sanctioning bodies that don't adhere to their own regulations. It is the fighters who need supporting. Fighters are who are leaving the sport. Promoters and sanctioning bodies we have plenty of.

You can have a fight without santioning body, you can't without fighters.

I too like kickboxing and agree that banding together is the answer. But it is the fighters who need to band together because together they are the power of kickboxing.

See you at NAC James

Ronnie Copeland
06-14-2005, 08:18 PM
Fair enough James. Good Luck!

James Mitchell
06-17-2005, 05:51 PM
Update to Pan American Tournament.

Frank Babcock President of KICK International called me yesterday (6-16-05) He had already did a preliminary investigation and confirmed most of what I said happened, has happened. He has asked for a formal protest (no fee) and copy of bout. He will then convene a review board and will sit in on this review personally and act as a voice for me and my fighter. After the review board makes it decision he will offer opportunities for my fighter that will completely resolve this matter. Mr. Babcock expressed grave concern for this incident especially the safety issues. He appreciated the detailed story of events as it has impacted him to resolve even more not just this event but any others as well. he thanked me for bringing this up and hopes more will do the same if it occurs. It is the fighters and trainers that can best help clean up the acts of promoters. I thank Mr. Babcock for responding to us in the manner in which he has. I would also like to thank Tommy Alcozer Sr. who was obviously honest in Mr. Babcocks preliminary.

Fighters, Trainers and spectators, be observant, be knowledgeable of rules and regulations. Voice your concerns publicly. The only way to get a reaction is an action. We should all be watchdogs of this sport. If we truly want to grow as a sport then we are going to have to clean it up. Sanctioning bodies can not do it alone. Yes they have Representatives at events but is not enough. It is not enough to boycott disreputable promoters because unless you voice no one else is aware of them. If event Representative are not enforcing rules and regulations Voice it publicly. If more fighters can get safe and fair bouts more will fight. Fighters will train harder because of this. The sport will rise in credibility and viewability. Sponsers will then start coming to us as well.

The greatest crime is not by the unscupoulus people in the business, it is the silence of those who watch it happen and do nothing.

There is alot of regionals going on this weekend good luck to all.

James Mitchell

P.J. Reilly
06-17-2005, 11:44 PM
Good to see everything getting resolved. Mr. Babcock seems to be genuinly interested in helping.

P.J. Reilly
06-30-2005, 01:04 PM
Anyone on here going to attend KICKs World Championships?