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  #61  
Old 06-25-2005, 12:07 PM
dan tharp dan tharp is offline
Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 42
Default Re: Optional Headgear Rule

pj, you are correct about bad promoters abusing this. There are alot of scumbags out there that I have kept quiet about. I for once can say I admire the stance the ikf has taken and agree with the rules they have set for it. I am also a person who has promoted and has fought without headgear as an amatuer .
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  #62  
Old 06-25-2005, 12:08 PM
Curtis Bush Curtis Bush is offline
Hall Of Fame Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 365
Default Re: Optional Headgear Rule

In the PKA days, amateurs never wore headgear on PKA televised fights. As a spectator at home watching on tv, I just assumed I was watching some crummy Pro's!. I did not even realize these guys were fighting in the amateur division.
My concerns beside the "cut issues" I laid out earlier are:
1. Will the general public know that fighters without headgear are indeed amateur?
2. What seperates amateur from pro...just a "purse"?
3. Will some promoters try to pull a "fast one" on the public and make their show appear to be "pro', when in fact it isn't.
4. If you want some amateurs to not wear headgear. I believe you have to make it "across the board". Either ALL amateurs wear it, or All do not...........
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  #63  
Old 06-25-2005, 12:48 PM
William William is offline
Fighter
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 14
Default Re: Optional Headgear Rule

Curtis,

You touched on the crux of the matter. Amateur boxing has an across the board policy requiring headgear for amateurs. Amateur kickboxing, perhaps because it is not regulated by one organization, does not offer a standard for all to adhere. I am disappointed with the IKF decision because it is a retreat from a unified, and easily recognizable, standard relating to the safety of amateur competitors.

Best Regards,

William
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2005, 08:07 AM
Pammypanda1 Pammypanda1 is offline
Hall Of Fame Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 517
Default Re: Optional Headgear Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Mitchell
Well that didn't take long. Over the last two days I have had three promoters email or call me wanting some of my amateurs to fight without head gear. I of course said no. One even offered "premium travel expenses" for one of my best fighters. When I still said no. Two of the three passed on my fighters. The other I am waiting on a final word. I think I already know what that will be. The third promoter talked how the new option was for the sport and something needed to be done. I agreed that something needed to be done but this wasn't it.

Some option! The real option will turn out to be no head gear or no bout. At least fot the experienced fighters on a lot of cards.

My top two fighters have decided to turn pro in in July after their last amateur commitment is finished, one going MMA.

My new rising welterweight has decided to make college his main priority and will still train but will at this point no longer compete.

Well, that saves me a trip to the NAC as they were the same three I was taking to Orlando. I'm sure this won't even dent the NAC or amateur kickboxing as a whole I just thought I would mention it.

By the way all three promoters were IKF licensed promoters in good standing.

James


James,

A couple of questions to clarify your post. (These are legitimate questions, not asked to start anything, I'm truly curious and interested in your reply.)

Are you saying that due to the new headgear option, that your top two fighters have decided to turn pro? or had they already made this decision and you are just announcing it? The way it is posted, it is unclear how it is meant.

If it is due to the headgear rule, can I ask why they have decided to turn pro if they have the option to try it without headgear first. What are their records? I wasn't aware that some of your fighters had over 10 fights. The one that has decided to go pro MMA-- if he has already been fighting MMA, then he is already comfortable fighting without headgear, what influenced his decision to go Pro MMA vs. Pro Kickboxing? Are you also his trainer for MMA?

The comment about your rising welterweight........ What is wrong with wanting to pursue college? You say that like it's a bad thing! LOL Why has he decided to not compete? Especially at NAC, where the headgear issue isnt even an option. What is his record? If he is "rising", I would think he would choose to go to this NAC if his plans are to stop competing, what better way to end (or in his case, put on hold) a career then to stop as a NAC champ.

How many fighters do you have and what are their records?
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  #65  
Old 06-26-2005, 07:21 PM
James Mitchell James Mitchell is offline
Master Champion
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 80
Default Re: Optional Headgear Rule

To answer some of the post, but first I want to ask some questions.

1. Who is admin? This has been asked before and the answer vague as to whoever was in the office. That is not an answer, why cant each "admin" sign at the bottom of their post? You know, a name. Can you not stand by your post except by anonomity?

2. What was the reasons for the head gear option? If growth of sport explain this.

3. What will be accomplished by this option? What are the benefits to this rule? Why the change from an adamant stance on safety? (which I and a lot of others admired)

To answer your questions and reply to your response.

1. WHY are you taking such shots at this rule?

Answer: Mainly because I saw the IKF as bieng for the spirit of the sport. The IKF stood for the safety of the fighters above all else in order to provide exciting, fair and safe (within reason) competition for young amateurs. This in turn would build these aspiring amateurs to go pro. A lot of other Sanctioing Bodies saw amateurs as an exploitable, marketable and realatively cheap resource bowing to the pressure of promoters who wanted to heighten their shows without having significant exspense increases.
That and the reasons I have already posted, thats why.

2 What is wrong with them asking? Nothing. But they did pass on including my fighters in the event. I didn't call them, they called me.

I am not abusing my points by throwing in promoters who I claim are abusing the rule. In fact I don't see it as an abuse of the rule, just use of it. Promoters have the right to use any fighters they want and turn down any fighter they want, for any reason they want. The only way to abuse the rule as you put it is to file for option falsley or with knowledge of falsehood. Any conversation or communication leading up to the option bieng filed can not be construed as abuse and you know it. Many post on here not just mine have suggested that a great portion of promoters may or may not handle this correctly. After all who has it been suggesting this rule in the first place? The fact that NO ONE has asked you yet shows nothing, it only means that they have not applied for the option yet. IKF promoters know a lot of rules that have been bent a little in the past. Don't get me wrong I am not naive and I know this is the nature of the beast that is why it is so important to have steadfast safety regulations. After all you don't have suggested ways to Sanction an event, you have rules and regulations to help keep promoters in check and ensure fighter safety and fair competition. If all promoters were fair you wouldn't need the rules.

3. How can ANY of us really know this is why you won't be attending the NAC Tournament?

Answer: You don't. Just like how will ANY of us will know why you made the rule, or why Day vs. Bartinelli was reversed then reversed again.

I don't need this new rule or anything else to excuse myself from the NAC if I or any fighter didn't want to go, we wouldn't go, simple.

Your right it is too bad to lose even one fighter for that reason.

I never said I have no fighters now. I said I have none attending the NAC.
I have 25 amateur fighters that I train and manage 10 other amateurs currently. I also Train and or manage 17 pro fighters and am currently signing more. (Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA)

What matchmaking practices would you like to discuss with them? They technically have not violated any rule. The headgear option was to allow an experienced amateur the ability to not wear headgear. No where in the rule does it say you can not turn down a fighter during the matchmaking process who wishes to wear headgear. It only states that if one of the already matched opponents wants headgear both must wear headgear. Even if a violation had occured the promoter could deny the conversation and it would get down to the word of each. Let me see if I can guess which one you would go with. Me the trainer who will post his mind or the promoter who will make you money. Well I understand, you know them they're credible. I did find it interesting that one of the promoters is from around your neck of the woods and asked if one of my inexperienced fighters would go no head gear in late August in California but does not have an event listed in the IKF events page for that time but does have an event in October. Why would a promoter ask about a bout that is not listed from a trainer who obviously is opposed to no head gear and offered air fare for me and my fighter hotel expenses and per diem for one fighter for one bout no headgear even after I said the fighter only had two bouts and we don't do no head gear? All trainers and promoters who read this got to see what I see. Frankly I smell a setup to see if I would adhere to my own word. Because no promoter would offer this for an inexperienced amateur non title bout, it don't happen. I do have the email and the recorded conversation. I record all business transactions. If the IKF wants to discuss this one, call me you know the number.

One Last Note: As defined by the IKF

AMATEUR: One who engages in an activity as a pastime rather than as a professional; one who lacks expertise.
AMATEUR IN SPORTS: An athlete who has never participated in competition for money. An athlete who is not paid for his/her performance. An athlete at the beginning learning levels of his/her career. A fighter who does not receive any money as a purse for fighting. However Amateur Fighters may receive gifts and or awards such as Trophies, Title Belts, Medals, Jackets, Hats.

PROFESSIONAL: Performed by persons receiving pay. An expert in a field of endeavor. PROFESSIONAL IN SPORTS: An athlete who is paid for his/her performance. Paid for their excellence of experience, knowledge and ability of their given sport. An athlete who plays for pay.

By these definitions which are on the IKF's rules & regs page, NO amateur should qualify under the headgear option guidelines. If the fighter is a beginner he is amateur if not a beginner the fighter is a pro.

Thanks to whoever

James Mitchell
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