Actually I think this has been one of the better threads. No one has been heated and some good points have been made. it is a good debate.

Pete, it is good to debate with you, I like it much better than slam fest and you are good to your word.

You make a good point when you said head gear can in fact cause a head injury. So can wearing a seat belt. Statistically speaking however, more injuries are caused from lack of using safety equipment than cause injury by a large margin.

As far as turning semi pro or pro goes. A fighter and or trainer should know not guess when a fighter is ready to go without safety gear. As far as feeling it out do a smoker without head gear if fighter feels they are not ready don't go semi pro or pro.

A pro fighter conditions much more and harder than an amateur does. This is evident by the condition I have seen in amateur and pro fighters. You can not assume that a trainer trains his fighters correctly ie neck conditioning how to take an unavoidable punch ect.

A prime example I saw at regionals. Two super welterweights fought for the finals. One had a 13-0 record and in proper condition that reflects that record. The other with a supposed record of 12-2. His condition did not reflect that record. Result, the conditioned fighter knocked out the other fighter in 40 seconds of the first round. If the second fighter had not been wearing head gear he would have been really injured. This is to say not just how many "wins" you have but who you have fought for those wins as well. Yes we would like to believe the integrity of all trainers and fighters but I think we all know this is fantasy land and not all of them are.

As far as the actual damage goes.
1. Pam is right scar tissue is stronger than normal tissue. On the other hand is is not as elastic as Curtis says. This in turn may not open the scar tissue as it is stronger but can and will pull open skin tissue around the scar. These small scars we in the fight business call leathering of the skin. Bottom line is a leathering effect to early in the career can cause problems later in life. Amateurs do not need that leathering early in their fight career.
2. Head gear DOES in fact reduce the possibility of head injury. Good head gear dispurses energy around the impact area instead of thru it reducing sudden trauma.
3. Head gear does not have a zero cut effect on fighters. It does greatly I would say about 95 % reduce chance of cuts on face, cheeks, and temple areas.
4. There is no evidence one way or the other as far as rotation injury goes as to the protective ability of head gear.

Bottom line

I agree with William it is a step backwards. Amateurs need the protection no matter what injury it is protecting from.

There needs to be a clear distinction between Amateur and Pro fighters other than announcing it.

We need to protect our amateurs until ready and when ready no longer need to be amateurs.

I know a small purse will not cover medical expenses. Even the largest pro purse in kickboxing will do that. But as you said Pete every penny counts.

Personally I see this as means to promote "pro like" events without having to pay for it. Any amateur who would step in the ring without head gear for the increased risk without increased compensation had better rethink his decision. Any trainer that would allow his fighter to do so, needs to think about his fighter a little more. No amateur of mine will step into the ring without head gear. If he is ready to take it off he is ready to turn pro.
Like Jason said if you don't want to wear head gear go pro.

As far as amateurs not wanting to fight IKF events because of head gear this makes no sense. Why not go pro and get paid if headgear is a problem. Pete you said it yourself there was no significant skill difference because of the pro status when you went pro.

In reality I believe the option is a mistake, I don't see it bieng utilized much and has no benefit to the sport or the fighter. Quite frankly it is about money, and I for one do not intend to trade my fighters safety so someone else can make more money.

James Mitchell

I definitely have to go with Curtis on this one. Blurring the lines even more is not the way to go. Pam, this isn't a problem in the eyes of the "fight fan," it's a problem for the people who aren't... the people who currently don't know anything about kickboxing, but are our potential audience. Obviously, the number of fans we have now isn't paying the rent, so we need MORE fans. I think getting rid of the ONLY distinction between amateur and pro is a bad move.

Whether headgear helps or hurts with regard to brain injury will probably not be settled on this board, so I won't bother getting into it. It does, however, DEFINITELY reduce the number of cuts from headbutts, elbows, etc. There's no reason to have them not wear it.

If I actually had a group of real, live kickboxers who fought on a regular basis, they would NEVER fight without headgear... unless of course, you want to pay up.

__________________
It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
I wish people who have trouble communicating would just shut up.

As far as I am concerned I feel ALL amateurs should wear head gear. The IKF can make this rule and I am ok with it however, enforcing it will be difficult. My team will ALWAYS wear head gear while they are amateurs no exceptions. If they don't want to then they will have to turn pro. The IKF is trying to please everybody here. It is an option and we will see what happens. As coaches, trainers and fighters we have the "option" to keep the head gear on amateurs if we want.

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Dean "Lethal Legs" Lessei
Owner / Chief Instructor
Dubuque Martial Arts Group
Team Singto Muay Thai / Kickboxing

What about this?

1. With all of the local promotions out there, we have absolutely no idea what a persons record is.

2. Fighters lie about their records all the time. What if a promoter wants his guys to go w/o headgear so he says that all of them have over 10 fights?

3. What if a trainer does the same with his fighters and he won't fight unless the fight is w/o headgear?

4. What about shin pads? Now we have guys w/o headgear and have opted to not wear shinpads (not mandatory in IKF). These guys look pro but they're still just amateurs. Talk about a confused public.

Isn't safety what we were striving for in the first place? Please don't fall into the abyss that the WKA and ISKA has. This is definitely a step backwards. Trust me, coming from an area full of sneaky promoters, this isn't going to work and someone will get hurt. Bring back the headgear and make the shin pads mandatory.

Why don't fighters count "smoker" bouts on their records? Are smokers only sparring matches turned up a level? Are they not as intense as a "real fight". Is my opponent not a "real fighter" because he is from a neighboring gym, so that is why it is a smoker?

How come Thais can go beyond 100 fights in their career without headgear (allowing elbows which cut) and come out with their faces looking good as new? Is their skin naturally tougher because of environment? Do they have "gentleman's rules" behind the dressing room walls?

If a GOOD amateur opts to fight without headgear, and say...he fights for a few years this way. What is the reason he does not go Pro? He would get paid to do it. Is there really that few of fights for the Pro's? I don't think so.

Are there really that many "shady" promoters out there? I have ran across a couple over the years, but I feel for the most part, everyone has been on the up and up as best they can. Maybe I have been lucky. P.J., why do the fighters out there continue with these shady promoters? Are their options for fights that limited, so they have no choice?

No one has given thoughts on this one, so I will ask again....If I was an amateur having 20 fights (all of which I wore headgear), and I decide it is time to turn Pro. Then in the first 2 or 3 fights, I have serious problems from not wearing the gear, and I can't keep it up...where do I go from there? Is my fighting career over because I may have made the decision too early? Yea, some of the in house sparring sessions can get pretty intense, but is still never to the level of the real fight..especially not really knowing what to expect from your opponent, whereas your buddy in the gym..you know what he is going to do. I really had no problem making the transition, this is just a general question I have.

These are just some questions I am think of...that does not take either side of the issue. Can you all provide some feedback?

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RESPECT ALL, FEAR NONE,
ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE!!!!!
Pete Peterson
Team RoundKick
Progressive Self Defense Academy
Carroll, Iowa

Pete. Wearing headgear sucks. It feels bulky and claustrophobic. But we have our amateurs wear it to protect against cuts. When you turn Pro...you are Pro. There is no turning back. Most amateurs who turn pro are excited and happy they don't have to wear that goofy headgear anymore. If they suck at being a pro, believe me its not because they are not wearing headgear....
So now we are supposed have 'feeling the water" pros when fighters fight on tv...
TV Announcer: Bob, you are now 3-0 with 3 knockouts in your young pro career. Whats next for you?
Bob: Thanks. But I really want to compete at next years NAC. I won 4 years in a row, so I am going back to the amateurs for one last shot at being a 5 time NAC Champ. After that I will resume my pro career.
TV Announcer: Huh????

Curtis, I was being serious with my question, man. Of course you cannot turn back once you go Pro. If you thought that is what I meant, it was not. And a fighter would not all of a sudden "suck" without the headgear, I agree...but if he has never taken the shot to the head or jaw without it, that can become a problem for some...I don't mean everyone. I think you missed my point, unless you are just having fun with me with the sarcasm...lol.

__________________
RESPECT ALL, FEAR NONE,
ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE!!!!!
Pete Peterson
Team RoundKick
Progressive Self Defense Academy
Carroll, Iowa

The pros are tough Pete. You might be 2-0 as a pro and your opponent could be 48-1 and also have had 30 amateur fights. When you make the decision to go pro. You have to be confident in your abilities or you should not go there. Just stay amateur. Which is fine....
Most fighters who turn pro are not doing it for the money. But for the personal accomplishment of being a pro fighter and trying to win a pro World title. The ultimate reward!

Yea, I would agree with ya there. My first Pro fight was against a "home town" favorite who was 21-3, had fought in Japan and elsewhere, and here I was 0-0. The announcer said I was 10-1, I guess to make it look better, but I knew I was supposed to be a chump fight for him. I lost a split dec. Lost only because I gave him too much respect. He was not as good as I expected from his record.

__________________
RESPECT ALL, FEAR NONE,
ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE!!!!!
Pete Peterson
Team RoundKick
Progressive Self Defense Academy
Carroll, Iowa

Curtis and Pogue Agreeing?!?!? There IS a God! There is a chance of world peace..... j/k guys!

For the record. I do agree amateurs should wear headgear. I am glad the option of not wearing it doesnt include juniors and that it will still be required at tournaments. Headgear, because of the area it covers and the padding, will disburse some of the impact over a greater area thereby making it "lighter" overall. The head rotation will happen regardless of whether headgear is worn or not. I would like to believe headgear was invented for that reason, not for the cut reason, and therefore should be encouraged. Everyone gets cuts. I think the degree of "how many cuts" they receive really doesnt matter UNLESS they are serious about making it a career. What is the percentage of fighters today that are going to actually go on to make big bucks and make it a career? There are far less that want to do it right now in their lives and then will move on.

I can see posts from several well known trainers right here stating they aren't changing anything now that it is an option. I think Dean Lessei's post states it very simply and with few words. . It is still up to the trainers. So why is everyone debating it?

It does bother me to read comments that this is all about promoters wanting to put on ""pro like" events without having to pay for it". Honestly, THAT is the furthest from our minds. I am sure there are some out there that are thinking that way, since someone thought to make it a point. I wouldn't have. Not ALL promoters will be thinking that way. We will still require our fighters to wear it, we will still promote the shows with everyone wearing it, or will seriously attempt it. WHY?? Because I believe it is still a safety issue that should be encouraged. HOWEVER, because the IKF has now made it an OPTION, it's an option. Still does NOT make it MANDATORY. We will not ask everyone if they want to wear it, our events will still be set up WITH headgear, unless it is requested from the fighter, and then we still have the option of saying no, and locating another fighter, or allowing it if approved. and in the event, we do have two fighters fighting without it, we are not going to be promoting it as a Pro event or even pointing out that some will not have head gear.

Why does this seem to come down to money????? Some say it's cause promoters want more money, some say the fighters should be paid as a pro if they want to fight without it. I can think of two fighters right off that do NOT want to go pro, they do NOT care about the money, they just enjoy competing and prefer to go without headgear. It's not always about money.

The answer is simple.... If a promoter asks your fighter to fight without headgear.

JUST SAY NO.

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