I think the IKF is trying to do a good thing here by allowing more advanced amateurs to try fighting w/o headgear. I understand the questions raised by Mr. Mitchell and I think they are valid questions that must be adressed, but I think that many of the amateurs who are considering turning pro should be given the chance to experience what it feels like to fight w/o the headgear. While the semi-pro division is a good suggestion I think you would be hard pressed to find a way to give lower paydays than the pro's make now as it isn't much to start with. Maybe just guaranteeing expenses? Also, as far as safety is concerned, I think that it's safer for a fighter going pro to know what he/she is getting into. Second, since only adults will be given this option, only people old enough to make informed(and maybe stupid) decisions will be subject to this rule. As an alternative, for safety reasons, how would people feel about letting them remove the headgear but requiring heavier (14,16 oz) gloves? I fought places as an amateur where headgear wasn't required and feel like it helped in my transition into the pros, however I started at 26 years old, so I was old enough to understand the potential dangers of what I was doing.

Pete and Pam, unfortunately I have met many promoters who want "pro like" events w/o paying the fighters. This new headgearless idea is going to get manipulated enough times that it will just be a burden for the IKF. If I'm wrong, great. However, I have a bad feeling about this.

James, not to disrespect you but you are way out of the park on this one. Some of your perceptions are hilarious at best but mostly over cautious considering the gain for this sport. As a media ad agent, I have sponsored kickboxing before and bought ads for sponsors in the past when the sport was very big in the 80’s and early 90’s, but now, the product has become, well, a hard sell to sponsors.
When seeking sponsorship, the question is all about WHOM are you competing with? Right now you are up against sports like UFC and MMA and Extreme Games. Kickboxing is a VERY EXCITING Sport, but you need to get your sport in front of more people such as TV. This is the bottom line.

What you fail to realize is the rule, as many others and I read it, is the option for a FIGHTER! Promoters are not going to be calling up fighters, demanding they fight without headgear. To even assume this is ridiculous, and if true, the decision would be with the trainer and the fighter. IF YOU DON’T WANT TO FIGHT ON A CERTAIN PROMOTERS CARDS, WITHOUT HEADGEAR, SAY THE WORD, “NO!”

This does not, as you claim, “Sound more like a pro fighter than amateur fighter without the payday.”
What a statement. What I see is a “Professional Approach” towards the issue instead of a “Lose Cannon” approach other orgs have taken with headgear (iska, wka, usmta etc.). Yes, there is paperwork involved, and it sounds like an organized and detailed way to research the fighters involved. You keep talking about the amateur fighters risk, the danger, over and over, James, WAKE UP! NO ONE is forcing ANY fighter to fight without headgear! It’s the FIGHTERS choice! Today amateur fighters are still fighting on other sanctioned events against fighters with far more fights with no headgear. At least the ikf is trying to keep a record of who will be allowed to fight and who will not. All I read is you being a Monday morning quarterback and picking apart what you feel is wrong with this rule. Any way you look at the headgear topic, as I see it, it’s a no win situation for the extremists for or against.

You fail to give the promoters much credit with their matchmaking with statements like, “A fighter can simply fight as many unsanctioned bouts and never report it. He then applies for option with recorded fights for option. Then injures a much less experienced fighter but qualified for option in a bout.”

James, this could happen now, and is and has happened on non ikf sanctioned events around the globe.

You said there is no incentive for an amateur to increase his risk with no pay out. True, but the amateur fighter has the choice. If he doesn’t want this risk, all he has to say is no. You next complain that both have to apply for approval and you now call it a license (Please…….) to use option. Then you say, “One may qualify and not the other or one may not be truthful on the application.” So true you are, but this is happening already.

I think Pete made a good point. My way, like Pete’s is, What if you’re a pro fighter and have your first pro fight. You are told you are fighting some guy who has only had 3 amateur kickboxing bouts and 1 pro kickboxing bout. Sure, you accept the bout. After 30 seconds in round 1, the fight is over, and they carry your battered body out of the ring. What happened? NO ONE told you he had 200 amateur boxing matches, 30 Pro boxing matches and 25 Pro mma bouts. DOES THIS BEING A PRO FIGHTER MAKE WHAT JUST HAPPENED EXCUSABLE?

This IS HAPPENING in the PRO levels now James. So under the title of amateur or pro, the risk is there for both. You mentioned, “What if you set up the optioned bout and the opponent doesn't show? James, HELLO! THIS HAPPENS NOW, and yes, all the paperwork was wasted, just like all the work the matchmaker has done to set up ANY other bout! Your comment about the paperwork being lost or misplaced, I had to laugh at, because again, yes, anything is possible. I loved the line where you said, “If a promoter can put on pro looking events without pro pay out, what does he need pro fighters for and what will this do for pro purses?” James, WHAT PRO PURSES? Pro purses are at an all time low! But NOT because amateurs are not fighting without headgear. Pete mentioned something that holds some weight here. If your statement were true, TELL ME JAMES, WHY is MMA far more popular than kickboxing is today? Sponsors flock to these events, and none of them wear headgear and ALL of them wear gloves HALF the size of a kickboxers gloves. MMA fighters strike just as hard, but there are no safety standards for headgear in MMA.
The only benefit is not just for the promoter who can put on pro looking events without the pay. The rule reads, as an OPTION for the FIGHTER! Not as a PRODUCT for a promoter. I would expect to see an amateur show with maybe ¾ in headgear and maybe one or two special fights for fighters without headgear. I especially expect to see many more muay thai fighters without headgear, mainly due to the clinch work.
The semi-pro idea was brought up on the message board last year and some said some athletic commissions would recognize all fighters in a semi pro division as a PRO because of the use of the word pro. The issue for the amateur fighter who wants to turn pro is not the purse amount. It’s the few opportunities pro fighters have. This is because the sport has no major sponsorship to help a promoter get more money to pay them.
The sport needs to be pushed up a level. Kickboxing is more than mma but is not looked upon as exciting like the sport of mma has become. Kickboxing needs to draw crowds to the fights because the crowds interest sponsors and sponsors mean bigger events, bigger events mean pros can attend and fight, and the more spectators, the more sponsors, the more pro opportunities the better the pro purses.

You don’t like the idea of a “Step-Up” division for the amateurs, but you want to have a “Step DOWN” division of the pros? Who’s really hurting the pros now with such an idea James? I like the “FIGHTERS” option to wear headgear rule and if others really stated their true opinions on this, I think many here agree it is a positive step for the sport, to advance it.
One more thing, I see some PRO fighters here opposing this rule. Are you opposing it because you didn’t have this choice? Or how many amateur fights did you pros have? Some pros never fought as an amateur, was this the case for some of you? If so, HOW can you argue this? You started as a beginner WITHOUT HEADGEAR.
Those are my thoughts.

Now who's next?

i like this rule. i myself never boxed amateurs for the very reason headgear. i feel it is a way fighters can take a lot more punishment. you don't have full vision and it makes a bigger target to hit.
bam

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dan stell (bam)

I think Mr. Media needs a reality check!

Pam I know good promoters who wouldn't use this for unfair gain, but I know other promoters yes that's plural promoters that sanction with other bodies than the IKF and will only use fighters that will not wear headgear so that they can promote Pro looking shows without paying out...

That is a fact and there are two (2) in Atlanta alone that I know of.

I fought without headgear on one of the USMTA sanctioned events in Atlanta...and a WKA event in Canada.

To me personally I could care less, I would rather not use head gear, but for the better of the sport Headgear should be mandatory for amateurs...

As Curtis said pro's are tough....I'm not good enough to go pro, if I continue to fight and reach that level then hopefully I'll get paid to take the headgear off.

As of right now, I don't even know if I will fight again..I have a severe elbow injury and had to stop my last fight after one round because I couldn't hold my right arm up...but eventually I would like to get into promoting and I definately can see where I can have better looking shows with no headgear and not have to pay pro purses!

Andrew

Sorry to hear about your elbow problem Drew. Heal quick and fight again if its in your blood and your healthy!
No one likes to wear headgear. But for amateurs it is a must. It sucks, but it needs to be worn.
If you tough guys don't want to wear it......Go Pro! I just assume by your comments only wimps wear headgear. So step up to the plate and go for it!
If you don't want to go Pro...just spar with no headgear and feel like a real toughguy!

I think the idea is a good one. Especially the part about there being a six month "trial period" to see if it works. At the end of the "trial period" we can then discuss if it was a good idea. At least that is my thinking.

I like it. It is not mandatory, you must have proven yourself experienced and have a winning record. If the opponent does not want to go without, you both wear it. If this was the rule when I was still fighting amateur, I would have been fine with it. It is just like the "semi-pro" division Mr. Mitchell suggested earlier in this post. But, if you don't like the feel of it, going forward, you can just opt to wear headgear and your opponent will have to do it, or not fight you. As a fighter, I would never have not fought an opponent if it was someone I wanted/ needed, regardless of a headgear rule. And having fought amateur FCR, pro FCR, amateur Muay Thai, and pro Muay Thai, I feel headgear is more dangerous for amateur Thai fighters in the clinch, if trying to escape. But all of us fighters know that in the beginning, you must wear headgear. My two cents on the subject.

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Zack Attack

I realize it is an OPTION to or not to wear head gear. All the trainers I spoke to save one said they would not allow their amateurs to fight without head gear. So most of this thread is moot. What concerns me is the direction we are looking at going.

As most of you know I am working on a televised project. When the topic of up and coming amateurs came up the wearing of safety gear including head gear. It was unaminous as far as myself and sponsers were concerned. Amateurs would wear all safety gear. It was agreed that a spectacular bout could be given and the safety of the amateur fighters could be maintained and avoid public scrutiny (a concern for most sponsers).

Again my only real concern here is not so much the option but the direction of amateur kickboxing and what people are willing to do to get a bigger payday. Thats all. We are not mma or ufc you are comparing apples and oranges.

As far as MR MEDIA is concerned, Drew K said it best he needs a reality check. Mr. Media I don't know who you are, but perhaps you should stick to ad campaigns (you know the fantasy of a product). Talk about Monday morning quarterback, Mr. you don't even make the team. Most of your post doesn't even warrant a reply. I am having no trouble getting sponsers for my project, perhaps you don't make that team either.

Quite frankly you sound like a corprate plant member. You remind me of some one else's writing style. I believe you to be a ghost member hiding behind the name Mr. Media and that you were already a member under a different profile.

There is no step down from pro there is just step out.
A step up division for amateurs is semi-pro just like in other sports.

"You fail to give the promoters much credit with their matchmaking with statements like, “A fighter can simply fight as many unsanctioned bouts and never report it. He then applies for option with recorded fights for option. Then injures a much less experienced fighter but qualified for option in a bout.”"
"James, this could happen now, and is and has happened on non ikf sanctioned events around the globe."

Your are right it has already happened on non IKF sanctioned and IKF Sanctioned events and now you want to open up the gates to this even more.

"This does not, as you claim, “Sound more like a pro fighter than amateur fighter without the payday.”
What a statement. What I see is a “Professional Approach” towards the issue instead of a “Lose Cannon” approach other orgs have taken with headgear (iska, wka, usmta etc.). "

You really do sound like a ghost member here. What loose cannon are you refering to? You sound very pro IKF and anti anyone else, Hmm. Don't get me wrong I support the IKF but that doesn't make me anit anyone else.

"I think Pete made a good point. My way, like Pete’s is, What if you’re a pro fighter and have your first pro fight. You are told you are fighting some guy who has only had 3 amateur kickboxing bouts and 1 pro kickboxing bout. Sure, you accept the bout. After 30 seconds in round 1, the fight is over, and they carry your battered body out of the ring. What happened? NO ONE told you he had 200 amateur boxing matches, 30 Pro boxing matches and 25 Pro mma bouts. DOES THIS BEING A PRO FIGHTER MAKE WHAT JUST HAPPENED EXCUSABLE?"

You make my point so well for me. Absolutley NOT! It is for this very reason that the option should not exist. There is NO WAY the IKF can verify bout information of fighters in every case. The honor system is what they are going to rely on. By your example proves this, and again you want to open the gate for it even more to our amateurs.

By the way the PRO fighters who have spoke out know their true feelings and do know what they are talking about. They are more for the sport than what they or anyone else can gain from it.

So whoever you really are Mr. Media you haven't got a clue to this sport as far as the fighters are concerned and not much of one otherwise.

Who's next? Please, you should finish what is on your plate before ordering another one.

James Mitchell

Mr. Mitchell,

The more you post and the more you speak of your projects, the more it comes off reading as if your concern for all of this is far more selfish then a fighters "safety". It reads as if you are much more concerned with how this will affect your "projects". Is that really your concern?? What your sponsors will think? What your "audience" will think? How this will change the marketability of your televised project?

You can come back on and "blast" me for speaking my thoughts, even start a whole new thread again, go right ahead. This "discussion" on this thread is not unlike any of the others. A thread is started, people start replying, you don't like their replies, so you post very lengthy posts as to why they should change their mind and why they are wrong. You become cynical, Curtis tosses in his sarcastic comments, and you both jump on others for not agreeing with you or "seeing the light" after either of your posts. You and Curtis slammed me saying how I could not accept change, how I didn't like anyone disagreeing with me, yet you both are better examples of the charges you accused me of.

You even stated yourself, "All the trainers I spoke to save one said they would not allow their amateurs to fight without head gear. So most of this thread is moot" So why are you going on about it, unless you are more worried for yourself then what "shaddy" promoters may do with it.

I used to be completely against amateurs not wearing headgear, in fact, you can find posts where I stated as much last year. However, because I can accept change, and because I do keep an open mind, I do see the advantages to it, from an EXPERIENCED FIGHTERS point of view. This is still the fighter's choice. I have taken the time to see it from another's point of view. Try it, it helps.

Mr. Thompson makes a very intelligent observation that none of us have even brought up, there is a 6 month trial. Why not shelf this for now, see what happens, and in the mean time, everyone can be working on their memoires so when the 6 months is up, we will have pages and pages of a new thread to read.

"Please, you should finish what is on your plate before ordering another one" As far as finishing on your plate before ordering another one........... It sounds to me like you are trying to eat off of too many plates yourself. You have a lot of irons in the fire, why not take the time you are spending trying to change everyone's mind and put it to good use on one of your many projects. WHO is the one that really seems to have a hard time with others not agreeing with them??

Again James, JUST SAY NO. It's an OPTION for fighters, and the last I looked, you are NOT a fighter, at least not in the ring.

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God makes things possible, not easy!
"If you think Muay Thai comes with fried rice, you're in deep sh*t!"